Laminitis - first response and actions?

[Vetwrap]

Firstly, this is not my horse - but I am looking for previously experience from others.

The horse has been diagnosed by a vet and is on box rest. The amount of bedding has been increased, the horse isn't turned out and is, as I understand it, on painkillers and sedatives.

My limited knowledge of this condition leads me to think that if this were me, I would make sure horse had a big deep bed, soak the hay (do not feed haylage) and make sure that the diet is all fibre - no sugar. Seek advice from a vet/farrier and shoe/remove/pad feet as required.

Would you limit the amount of soaked hay as well? I thought that the golden rule of ad lib hay always applied - or I am wrong in this?

Thanks in advance

 

[amandap]

I feed ad lib well soaked and rinsed hay. I would only slow eating down somehow (small holed nets etc.) if my pony was overweight, I personally do not believe in starving or leaving a horse without hay for any length of time especially every day/night. I always use shavings at least four inches deep and there is no need for pads until walking out.

I would add magnesium oxide and salt to the unmollassed beet to carry meds initially and then also give appropriate nil/low sugar good quality vitamin and mineral supplement. metabolichorse.co.uk site gives advice on how to work out correct mineral supplementation and diet if needed

 

[bensababy]

I feed ad lib well soaked and rinsed hay. I would only slow eating down somehow (small holed nets etc.) if my pony was overweight, I personally do not believe in starving or leaving a horse without hay for any length of time especially every day/night. I always use shavings at least four inches deep and there is no need for pads until walking out.

Echo this - worst thing you can do is to starve a laminitic. Vets advise on deep shavings bed as it is more compact than straw, get shoes removed (if shod), feed soaked hay, certainly not haylage. Personally as my boy has had 2 attacks of it, i would only call vet if it was a bad case - i always have a supply of bute to hand and my farrier is a god send.

 

[brucea]

As amandap...

But shoes off - shoes have no role to play where the pony is laminitic. They can only do harm. pads and supports if required, but if your horse has a healthy frog that is weightbearing without the shoe then leave it in contact with the ground.

Supportive surface.

Cut back on any molasses, sugars etc. Magox and minerals. Remember he will need companionship and socialising too - so if there is someone who can be in wiht him part of the day at least....that helps a lot. Misery shared and all that

 

[uandie1]

My section B was very footy after the frost and snow. The vet gave bute and she is now in a deep shavings bed. She was very sore after her trim from blacksmith but no bruising showing or reaction to hoof testers. This was 3 weeks ago. She has been having hay and Happy Hoof with carrots. She is sound at walk and spritely in the box.
When do you think i should be walking her out? She is my daughters pony for showing and pony club. I don't want to do her any damage. Any advice welcome.

 

[LucyPriory]

If they are comfortable enough walking out in hand is a good idea. Listen to the pony first, let them take their time, and give them plenty of rest stops if they need it. Try and keep them on a conformable surface if at all possible, although some prefer smooth concrete. Again listen to them.

But if it were my pony I'd cut the Happy Hoof and carrots. You are better off with small quantity of Kwik Beet with a low sugar vit/min supplement. If you want to treat the pony or make the Kwik Beet more appetising add horse friendly herbs. You can either pick them yourself for free or get something like D&H Stand Free if cash rich time poor.

If you haven't already read Founder Prevention and Cure by Jamie Jackson, it is available online from Amazon

 

[amandap]

I would stop the happy hoof and carrots too. I use these pads cut to size and taped on with duct tape for time outside when my pony is ready. I only have gravel yards so my pony needs protection for a while usually and she is not shod. http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/padsGC.html

 

[Vetwrap]

Thanks for all your replies. I will pass on what I can, but I know that I will not convince owner about taking shoes off.

You have confirmed what I thought about not starving the horse, so thank you for that.

 

[Partoow]

i take it this is a case of 'overwieght' laminitis.
So mirror much of the feeding advise but make sure the hay is 1.5% of body weight and is soaked for 12 hours as this is the time required for the sugars in the hay to leach out.
making sure they get all the full range of nutients is also important, so a fibre nut (complete) like Badminton fibre nut and put in a feedball and let them 'forrage for' this large nut like this. Speedi beet is a good succulent as it is suger extracted and safe for lamanitics.
NOT CARROTS!!!! these are actually worse than apples in the treatment of lamanitics!
before you decide the shoeing issue you should get the feet xrayed to determine the angle of the pedal bone and if there has been any sinking, lilly pads can be taped to the foot to support the frog and help stop sinking but if there is any rotation this may put pressure on the point of the pedal bone and increase discomfort, but xraying will help with the remedial farriery

 

[Vetwrap]

Sorry, should have mentioned, horse is not obviously overweight. Certainly no fat pads. TB eventer type with TB feet.

 

[brucea]

but I know that I will not convince owner about taking shoes off.

Then sadly, you may not see a good result. Sorry.

The last thing compromised laminae really need is to have the weight of the horse hung on them.

 

[Lotty]

My mare had laminitis last March and I caught it very early. The vet came out with sedalin and bute and put pads on her feet. Next day I put rubber matting down and 16 bales of shavings, then the farrier came to take off her shoes and she was x-rayed.

I was only feeding her hi-fi lite but was advised by the Laminitis Trust to feed Happy Hoof, mag ox and to weigh and soak her hay for 12 hours, I feed her 1.5 of her bodyweight.

 

[alsiola]

The last thing compromised laminae really need is to have the weight of the horse hung on them.

This shows an unbelievable misunderstanding of the functional anatomy of the equine digit.

 

[touchstone]

This shows an unbelievable misunderstanding of the functional anatomy of the equine digit.

But surely with a shoe on the hoof is effectively periphally loaded and the sole/frog are therefore suspended by the depth of the shoe - leaving the laminae supporting more weight than necessary?

 

[Kallibear]

This shows an unbelievable misunderstanding of the functional anatomy of the equine digit.

I'd be interested to know too why you belielve this. The shoe forecs the hoof to load entirely on the wall, with no sole or frog support as there should be. Hoe on earth can this be benificial for a horse who's hoof wall attatchment is compromised?

 

[amandap]

I'd be interested to know too why you belielve this.

Me too.
My understanding is peripheral loading without close passive loading support is not good for hooves... probably haven't worded that very well so hope my meaning is understandable.

 

[LucyPriory]

This shows an unbelievable misunderstanding of the functional anatomy of the equine digit.

Yes there is a huge amount of misunderstanding about hoof form and function.

As much among horse care professionals as the lay person - sadly

Which is why so many laminitics end up in boxes for months, shod, still lame and eventually PTS

It doesn't need to be.

 

[brucea]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucea
The last thing compromised laminae really need is to have the weight of the horse hung on them.

This shows an unbelievable misunderstanding of the functional anatomy of the equine digit.

Thanks Lucy

Alsiola - My simple problem is this - how can it help a compromised laminar attachment to provide only peripheral support?

How can it help a compromised solar laminar attachment and basement membrane to put the sole into a bridging role rather than a supporting role?

Heart bars - still peripheral. take the frog out of action, leave much of the sole bridging rather than supporting.

Mechanically, it does not make sense. Like putting two steel hoops on the inside and outside edge of your car tyre but lifting the tyre off the ground in the middle. The weight of the car is suspended on the steel hoops. (not the best analogy but the best I can come up with on the moment!)

 

[LucyPriory]

Brucea

I am working on a canute reference - not quite worked the wording out yet

 

[mrdarcy]

Shoes are just the worst things for a laminitic foot. Peripheral loading is just one, banging nails into a sore inflamed foot is another, impeding natural hoof function and circulation is another.

The one crucial thing to do with a laminitic is to remove whatever is causing the inflammation - usually diet related. remove the trigger, the inflammation will go and the horse will be sound again.

One of my client's mares had a very bad attack during the cold spell. The mare is IR and ultra sensitive. Vet came out and said the mare would never come sound again unless she had heart bar shoes fitted. Owner was strong and said no way. Less than a week later with hay being soaked again (and new batch of clover hay swapped for a different batch) the mare came 100% sound and is now back hacking out and cantering happily. All the vet said on a repeat visit about her rapid recovery with no shoes was 'I'm surprised'. Hummmmmnnnn....

 

[LucyPriory]

I've had a couple of 'classics'

1 - horse with ski tip pedal bone, convex sole and lamellar wedge. Vet said no it didn't have laminitis, but it would do if the shoes came off...... Shoes did come off and the horse became sound for the first time in months.

2- another vet - (regarding a long term LGL horse) feet are genetically flat and horse will always need shoes and maybe pads/wedges. Well same horse has some of the prettiest concave feet ever - when the diet and exercise are right.


I can only conclude that because some people don't see many barefoot horses they are unaware of the dramatic changes that can take place in form and function in sometimes just a few weeks.

And likewise because they have never seen just how effectively a laminitic can be transformed, they find it hard to believe - after all seeing is believing.

But not always, a colleague of mine showed a vet a freeze dried mustang hoof. The vet did not believe it came from a real horse and thought it was made out of plastic. Sadly no joke here.

 

[mrdarcy]

I've had a couple of 'classics'

1 - horse with ski tip pedal bone, convex sole and lamellar wedge. Vet said no it didn't have laminitis, but it would do if the shoes came off...... Shoes did come off and the horse became sound for the first time in months.

2- another vet - (regarding a long term LGL horse) feet are genetically flat and horse will always need shoes and maybe pads/wedges. Well same horse has some of the prettiest concave feet ever - when the diet and exercise are right.


I can only conclude that because some people don't see many barefoot horses they are unaware of the dramatic changes that can take place in form and function in sometimes just a few weeks.

And likewise because they have never seen just how effectively a laminitic can be transformed, they find it hard to believe - after all seeing is believing.

But not always, a colleague of mine showed a vet a freeze dried mustang hoof. The vet did not believe it came from a real horse and thought it was made out of plastic. Sadly no joke here.

New client - bought the horse as a two year old. He was footy on stones even then. Vet at the time advised her to shoe him, as a two year old, as that would be the only way he'd ever be sound. Horse is a classic sugar intolerant - excellent doer, cresty neck, event rings running down the hooves, been on and off lame his whole life. Not one person has ever said to the owner that all her horse's problems are down to his diet and I include a previous barefoot trimmer (EP). Hopefully now we can start to address his issues and get him sound and working hard.

 

[brucea]

Sadly people's ideas are often so entrenched.

I was at the feed shop today - buying linseed, unmolassed beet (that's getting harder to find!) and chopped oat straw chaff.

I looked at the stacked shelves and almost 90% of it was "performance feeds" or molassed feeds, one bag proudly advertised "sprayed with an appetising apple flavoured syrup" . Loads of balancers, performance balancers and conditioning feeds.....

Folks really need to rethink how they are feeding their horses. If this stuff is there then someone is buying it, and some horse is eating it!

 

[haycroft]

.

The one crucial thing to do with a laminitic is to remove whatever is causing the inflammation - usually diet related. remove the trigger, the inflammation will go and the horse will be sound again.

....

yes i agree but it can be harder to find than you think
our little pony has had lami first time throughout the winter

(trying to manage it for about 6 years now),hes been in for quite sometime now, always unshod, dropped soles,not over weight, regular vists from farrier,hes about 15 years old

reading these topics with interest

 

[LucyPriory]

haycroft you have my sympathies - some lamis are harder to manage than others.

Assuming you have ruled out EMS, IR and cushings

Also assuming you have had the sensible advice about movement (the more natural the better) being very useful in managing the condition and that keeping in a box full time is a really bad idea

There is something else which as yet is not being very widely discussed or even acknowledged

There is some research in the states and anecdotal evidence this side of the pond of something for now called Factor X. I can not verify if this has legs or is masking a true cause but bear with me.

The theory is that Factor X disturbs the balance in the caecum (cecum), kills off the good bacteria and promotes the inflammatory response which leads to laminitis.

Now the research in the states seems to show that Factor X can cause an overly acidic caecum, sometimes caused by stress, sometimes an element in the diet (one client horse over indulged on tree bark).

With my own and client horses, sometimes just removing cause is not enough - the horse seems to need help to get its gut back in working order and this can take an age, although the benefits can be seen more quickly.

There are various products designed to support an ailing caecum - I use Dodson and Horrell Yea Sacc 1026. I find it needs to be used for several months. I can't say it works for everyone all the time. That would be impossible, because often the horse has multiple issues and no firm diagnosis of anything.

Also I can't say there aren't better products that work more effectively, just that my own seriously sensitive horse does ok on this and falls apart when I stop it. And she is suffering low grade (?) stress due to some circumstances I can't currently fix.

Long term it is better to fix the cause rather than manage the symptoms, but until we build a track (paddock paradise) nearer where I live (or I move) we are stuck with where we are for now.

Sorry a bit long and maybe not helpful - pm for clarity!

 

[amandap]

One of my client's mares had a very bad attack during the cold spell. The mare is IR and ultra sensitive. Vet came out and said the mare would never come sound again unless she had heart bar shoes fitted. Owner was strong and said no way. Less than a week later with hay being soaked again (and new batch of clover hay swapped for a different batch) the mare came 100% sound and is now back hacking out and cantering happily. All the vet said on a repeat visit about her rapid recovery with no shoes was 'I'm surprised'. Hummmmmnnnn....

Soaking and rinsing hay is so important as well as changing batch of hay if soaking and rinsing isn't getting improvement. I've had a batch of hay produce an attack of laminitis in the past. I so wish it was possible to develop some form of home test for NSC content for peeps like me who get small loads from variable sources. It just isn't practical to get each lot tested and coming form a supplier even two bales in the same delivery may be from different sources.

The one thing I find fascinating is how all the hoof mechanism, hoof development, hoof problems etc. stuff doesn't make total sense to everyone as it did to me when I first started learning about it.

 

[LucyPriory]

amandap you are so right. And the hay situation is made worse by a lack of communication between suppliers/users.

I've been ploughing through various agricultural documents about hay making and it's been a bit of a learning curve.

For example I didn't realise some hay makers spray their hay crop with mould inhibitors.

I am aware though that some sensitive horses don't seem to tolerate mould inhibitors - with their owners being aware of increased solar sensitivity when they are fed.

But as bulk hay is often distributed by dealers there is little/no record of how it was made or what went on it before and during the process.

So it is no surprise really that some hays which may seem safe enough, prove to be anything but.

 

[brucea]

I think it is an issue in bagged feeds and chafs too Lucy...mould and fungal inhibitors.

 

[LucyPriory]

I think it is an issue in bagged feeds and chafs too Lucy...mould and fungal inhibitors.

Yes agreed Brucea - this is how we first worked out that mould inhibitors could be a problem; as some otherwise should be ok bagged products weren't. But at least with bagged feeds you can read the label and avoid them.

Not so easy with hay.

Am trying to find out if the mould inhibitors will wash off hay. Apparently they can damage the baling machinery - nice!

 

[mrdarcy]

Happy Tummy is a product I recommend a lot to rebalance the stomach - brilliant stuff and works a treat.

re mould inhibitors etc - yes a problems for some horses. Another source of issues is the pesticides on sugar beet. All Uk sugarbeet is sprayed with lots of very strong pesticides and this is impossible to wash off, however many times you soak your beet pulp. I've stopped feeding sugar beet for that reason, though do use sugar beet water at endurance rides but that's only and occasional thing.