laminitis not improving

[seoirse]

We are now into week 4 of box rest, he was doing okish and on Saturday went downhill again and is now back to the beginning pretty much. Got frog supports back on and I'm back to mucking out around him which is just awful cos he's a total prat. The vet is being so laid back about it and if he wasn't one of the best horse vets for miles I'd be getting myself even more worked up than I already am. GG is walking about okish in the box on his bedding, doesn't look too bad but is dreadful on a hard surface. I am trying to not move him out of the box unless absolutely necessary (like Friday when he excavated the whole box including rubber mats! Had to take him out to straighten it all out!).

The vet has mentioned the haylage might be the problem but this horse has severe respiratory problems and I've almost killed him in the past feeding hay, so its not really an option to take him off the haylage, though I am soaking it for 12 hours, before he has it, which I know is controversial in itself but I am pretty stuck for alternatives.

We've not had X-rays yet, as again, the vet is being a bit slow about it. The horse is 13, I've had him all his life, he's never had laminitis before and was fully fit and in great shape prior to this attack. Don't know what to do, other than push for the x-rays.

 

[chestnut cob]

Are you able to soak hay rather than haylage? If you soak your hay for long enough it should remove the dust I think?

 

[TGM]

What sort of haylage are you feeding? If it is an early cut rye-grass haylage then soaking it might still not remove enough sugars from it. Have you tried using something like the Horsehage High Fibre or Timothy which have low sugar content?

 

[pottamus]

Sorry to hear about your problems...I presume your horse is on bute? My lad was not improving too well when he had it and his was down to the stress of being boxed, he hated it and was a right mess. With the vets advice, I fenced off a stable sized pen outside of his stable (he has a field stable), put bark chippings down and let him out to potter in the sunshine...he improved no end with this.
My lad also has COPD and was struggling terribly being confined, but I think low value soaked hay was his saviour...I was lucky that I had year old hay to soak.
My vet did say that if he had any other underlying problems like COPD type troubles in his lungs or stress, that until these were solved the laminitis would not improve. So I had to focus on these for a time and when we got that right, his laminitis improved in no time at all.
My lad did go through hell though through being confined, he got so stressed that at one point he just stopped eating completely and started shedding weight at an alarming rate and then having dioreah problems.
I would be inclined to get your horse on mature hay (have it tested) soaked.
What dose of bute are you using?

 

[seoirse]

Thanks for the replies. He is on the high fibre haylage, supposedly suitable for laminitics but of course no-one would feed it to a lammy unless there was no other option! I really really can't give him hay, in any shape. I've tried soaking it for 12 hours, steaming it, rinsing it with running water for AGES, everything really. It's taken years to get his breathing problems under controls and I'm really keen not to set them off again. Plus I know that if I change him onto hay and his feet get better then getting him back onto haylage so he can actually breathe will be near on impossible having had laminitis. His breathing was so bad a few winters ago that he collapsed on boxing day and had to have emergency treatment. It was after that we gave up with hay completely and once we got him right after that episode he's never looked back other than the odd dust cough in the dry part of the summer he not been on any breathing meds for years now. Though I do have to keep him out all year round to maintain this, so of course he's got a bit of a tickle now from being in but he's not too bad yet but if I so much as show him a slice of hay I know he will soon be in a real state.

He is a little bit stressed being in, calling when things walk past etc, but not too bad, especially for a horse that lives out all the time. There are other horses in during the day and some that come in at night so he's not alone on the yard and he lays down at night and is fairly calm and pootles about in his box. He has his haylage on the floor and mixes it all in with his bed so it takes him ages to pick it all out which keeps him occupied! He's a thug generally anyway, its just his way, so trashing his box and 'helping' me while I muck out is quite normal for him. I do think he would be happier being out but its just not an option for me, I'm on a big livery yard and there is no way they'd let me put chips down on an area for him, plus he has a history of jumping out of the arena when loose schooled so I'm not sure I'd trust him anyway!

He's on 1 sachet of bute a day, down from 4 right at the beginning, though I think he could do with 1 twice a day really so I am going to up it tonight.

Such a nightmare. I am so concerned about the hay/breathing thing. Sat here waiting for the vet to call me to decide what to do next. I am at a total loss and so worried cos he's just not getting better.

 

[TGM]

What is he like with hay replacer chaffs? Do these upset his breathing as well? I just wondered whether you could replace some of his haylage ration with a low sugar/starch hay replacement chaff?

 

[seoirse]

He's ok on those sorts of things. He has a little bit of hifi lite morning and night with his meds in at the moment and I've fed him this in large quantities in the past when our grazing has been crummy and he's tolerated it fine, which is weird as its essentially hay and straw, but anyway, it works. It does have some molasses in though doesn't it? Is there a chaff alternative that is less sugary than hifi lite available or is that the best I'll get?

Impossible going to the feed merchants for advice I've been and asked them and all they want to do is sell me as much stuff as possible!

 

[seoirse]

Finally spoken to the vet, who thinks more hifi/less haylage is a good idea. He is coming tomorrow tea time to have another look though. I am praying for some sort of improvement when I get to the yard this evening!

 

[ameeyal]

Has your horse had blood tests done for IR and ems and cushings?

 

[seoirse]

Not yet but I think that might be the next step I will raise it tomorrow when the vet comes. We have another horse at the yard that is IR and mine is a carbon copy of him so I wouldn't be surprised in the least!

 

[YasandCrystal]

Can you not use that sole support putty? You can get that from the vet. When our tiny pony gets bad we pack his feet with the putty and use vet wrap over the top or duck tape. I advocate a bare strip rather than just box rest as I think they get depressed inside and I think that some movement albeit pottering is essential.
My little boy still has a touch of lami - I was giving him half a bute (he's 10hh) and 2 ACPs a day for a week.
I agree that haylage could be your problem - mine cannot tolerate it. I also agree about the hay replacer.

 

[Lotty]

My mare had laminitis last year and she was on total box rest for 5months, only coming out for a very short walk for her x-rays.

As pottamus mentioned earlier low value hay soaked for 12 hours was her saviour. I rang the laminitis trust and they told me to feed 1 scoop of Happy Hoof morning and night and to weigh and soak her hay, they also told me to feed 1.5% of her body weight. My mare was on bute and sedalin which was gradually reduced as she got better. We did go through two periods where she went really down hill and her bute had to be upped again. It is a roller coaster ride.

My mare had imprint shoes fitted every 3 weeks then finally had heartbars fitted, she was x-rayed every 3weeks the day the farrier was due so he could see the x-rays.

I was allowed to start riding my mare in September and she is just about fully fit now. I really wish you and your boy the best.

 

[Rose Folly]

Read your thread with great sympathy as I've just been through what you are going through now - though things are lookingmuch better.

Very briefly, 10 year old cob mare, had her 6 years, never laminitic until this winter, During the appalling frosts over Christmas she went down with it. Vets from 2 different practices agreed that it had been caused by too-rich haylage (local farmer making it for the first time and it was more dairy-cow quality) and access to very frozen grass - our horses live out 24/7.

Like your, my mare can't tolerate hay at all, soaked for 24 hours, whatever. It's a no-no, and like yours, she nearly died of RAO 2 years ago. Anyway, I've had a steep learning curve, and luckily have a very supportive vet, but these pointers might help.

1. Try bedding GG deep litter style with shavings (real deep litter - only the poos lifted). forget the wet bits, cover them with more shavings every day. I am using Bedmax, and its' brilliant. The bed is really deep now, and strangely doesn'tsmell of ammonia. I sprinkle freshtwice a day, and it's surprisingly economic.

2. She has been on Happy Hoof and Horsehage's Timothy grass but local supplies of the latter have now run out, so for the last fortnight she's been on oat straw. Great success, costs £4.50 per small bale from local farmer, and the bales last her about 5 days. I cheer it up by handpulling some sweet long grass and chopping it up to sprinkle like 100s and 1000s over the straw - I also chop up the green of bunched carrots very finely, and ditto cowparsley and water mint, of which we have an abundance as a stream runs through our field. She gets very little of the greenery but it's just enough to amuse her and damp down the straw. She has had no reaction to the straw, which isn't soaked, and I'm seriously considering that instead of too much haylage for next winter, as she's a plump Madam who lives on air

3. Don't despair. Mine has taken ages to come through this as she also got flexural dermatitis at the same time, so it was diffiult to tell where one lameness ended and the other began. She has not had X-rays, but is now going to have heartbar shoes - if only the farrier would get back to me!!! - she had two abscesses in one foot 10 days ago but once they were drained she has been sound as a bell since, clopping round in her concrete stable yard, spending little time on the bedding except for a zizz at night, and keep the neighbours awake playing with her horseball at 2a.m.!

Don't despair my nigihbour's pony has just receovered after a 4-month lami session and I have high hopes for mine. Please let us know how you get on, and hope this helps.

 

[hunting mad]

Have you got your horse on anything to help with his circulation???
Ask your vet for ACP,or garlic and rosehip and i think magnisium does as well.
I have just got a garlic mineral lick for our lami dartmoor....it a dengie lite,epecially for laminitic horses,i think!!!Will have a look when i next go back outside and double check i have the correct make

 

[LucyPriory]

OP - what a bind - I feel for you. You could substitute a proportion of the haylage ration with unmolassed sugar beet - and you could try adding in Fine Fettle Feeds Happy Tummy with some probiotoc such as Yea Sacc.

I have found lami prones are unable to really tolerate haylage but the above might help.

Good luck with it all.

 

[sasha1]

I am having the same problems and mine has just been diagnosed with IR she is 12 and we have managed the laminitis for 5 years really well. I bit the bullet yesterday and decided that she can have a walk in a soft sandschool she went mad and you wouldn't know she was poorly. The vet had me keep lilly pads on for a week at a time and after 3 weeks her frogs had almost gone. I do wonder if vets always do know what is the best treatment and are too laid back. I feel so sad and sorry for her. I know its hard, but try to keep positive, if only they could talk.

 

[TGM]

He's ok on those sorts of things. He has a little bit of hifi lite morning and night with his meds in at the moment and I've fed him this in large quantities in the past when our grazing has been crummy and he's tolerated it fine, which is weird as its essentially hay and straw, but anyway, it works. It does have some molasses in though doesn't it? Is there a chaff alternative that is less sugary than hifi lite available or is that the best I'll get?

Dengie now do HiFi Molasses Free which is lower in soluble carbs than HiFi Lite, and is suitable for laminitics. They say it is suitable for use as a partial hay replacer, so worth giving them a ring to see how much of the ration can be replaced with it.

 

[Tnavas]

Sorry to here of your horses problems - I've spent the whole summer worrying that my mare would develop laminitis as she is prone to being a tad porky. We've been lucky.

Here in New Zealand they are now making hay from a grass called 'Brown Top' once it was considered the lowest of the low nutrition wise and just grazed by sheep now it has become popular as a hay crop for lamanitic prone horses and ponies. It is high fibre, low sugar and doesn't need to be soaked - this is a site about it. http://pastureinfo.massey.ac.nz/grasspages/gbrowntop.html

The pictures remind me of 'Yorkshire Fog' grass.

Lammi owners may need to source farmers that crop this grass or even encourage farmers to start turning it into hay.

You might consider feeding Paprika - it increases circulation

 

[seoirse]

Hi everyone, thank you SO much for all your replies and ideas. It's all a great help and really good food for thought. Luckily I am on a big yard and there is lots of support and the yard owners wife has a chronic laminitic driving pony so they make low value hay available for everyone who needs it cos of this. Though of course I can't feed it! The vet has suggested swapping half his haylage ration for hifi, I am going to the feed shop later to see if they have the molasses free version and then I will gradually change him onto it over the next week.

Vet is out again tonight though to have another look as we are not making any progress when we ought to be, though the initial attack has settled and he's not got bounding pulses or heat etc now. He struck himself and removed a large portion of foot about 6 weeks ago, 2 weeks before the lammy started, and he is still very bad in that foot, even though when he struck himself he didn't go lame, the farrier had to take a lot of foot off and put shoes on to balance him out (was previously barefoot) so then when he went lammy thats the foot it started in. So the vet thinks that is whats set this all off, and is now wondering if there is something else underlying in that foot as he is still favouring it. Maybe an abcess or something, though he isn't lame enough for that I don't think.

Horse in great spirits though and full of beans. Mucking him out is a nightmare.

Going to get some more ACP, he was on it at the beginning but when it started to settle I stopped it and ran out anyway. Will get some more tonight from the vet as it has the added bonus of keeping G a bit quieter as well.

Not sure about foot pads etc, there seems to be so many options! He did have the frog supports on to start with and they definitely made him more comfortable and they came off when he started to look good after about a week, but when he got bad this second time I put them back on and they made him, if anything, worse, so I took them off again and now he's barefoot, though I've got some cavallo boots with pads in so if I do have to get him out of the box (when he plays with the mats!) I can put those on so his front feet at least dont have to stand bare on the yard.

Will update after vet visit.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.
S and G x

 

[AmyMay]

Have you thought about replacing part of his ration with straw??

 

[seoirse]

Straw doesn't do his airways any favours either, though it doesn't make him as bad as hay weirdly. I did give him a bit when he was first in and he didn't really bother with it so I don't think he is that keen, though I'm sure he'd eat it if he had no other options! I think hifi has straw in doesn't it?

 

[YasandCrystal]

I forgot to mention that I am also feeding my laminitic that 'Happy Tummy' charcoal in his little feed, which is reputed to absorb toxins. And I give him the weed 'sticky willy' its the climber that funnily enough sticks like velcro - it's said to be good for digestion and particularly laminitics. My little pony really loves it and I am sure they know what helps them. It is growing like mad at the moment - my unruly garden is full of it luckily.

 

[seoirse]

We've got loads of that sticky weed stuff. When I've changed him onto the new hifi/haylage ratio I'll try giving him some of that too. Trying to only change one thing at a time incase anything makes him bad again then I know what it is!
Poor horse.

We're meant to be going away for a night this weekend, I REALLY don't want to go but have to as have resisted OHs other efforts to get me to go anywhere and I missed all his family stuff over Easter (in laws were not very happy!! apparently there is more to life than horses?!), so I am going to go and am leaving G in very capable hands so I know he will be fine, the girl I'm leaving him with is the one that owns the IR Sec D, so she knows what she's doing. We are meant to be going to Cornwall for 5 nights in June so this is good preparation for me I guess!!

 

[JBW]

Please be aware that HiFi Lite contains molasses. If a horse suffers from laminitis it should really be fed a molasses-free feed.

 

[seoirse]

Thanks, someone else did mention there is a molasses free version so I'm off in a min to try and source some!

 

[seoirse]

So, I got the molasses free hi fi, which turns out to have soya in which is one of his allergens (when he was 2 he had a virus which left him with a stack of allergies - I did say he was complicated!), anyway, I have concluded its in such a small quantity that its probably ok, plus he gets hives from soya, so if he does come out in hives I'll have to go back to hifi lite. He does tend to cope with his allergies better these days than he used to, with the exception of hay and dust.

Anyway, so vet came and left me a bit mystified. He said he is very happy with G's progress. He said the attack is well and truly under control so his management and food is right and the haylage is not perpetuating the problem, or it doesnt appear to be which is good news.

He thinks that we took him off the bute (I only weaned him off it at the rate the vet suggested) too fast which is why he's gone back again. He said that horses can manage inflammation, but when they have bute it tricks the system into thinking there isnt any inflammation present, so when you take them off it, it has to be at a rate the body can keep up with, to take over dealing with the problem on its own. I do recall reading an article about this somewhere a while back so it makes sense. So he had 2 bute in his tea last night and one this morning. He's to stay on one morning and night til monday, then go to 1.5 a day, then one a day etc etc.

He also said G has exceptionally hard feet, which will not 'give' to allow the swelling to go anywhere, he said most horses had some give in their feet but G's are like stone. Which is true as before all this he's hacked out and competed barefoot quite happily so he does have good feet.

Vet wants to come back in 10 days and x-ray with a view to putting heart bars on. I am not sure about this being possible (I can't see he'll be sound enough in 10 days!), or a good idea, but I don't want to disagree with the vet because he is one of the best horse vets for miles (Oxfordshire) and I am very lucky to have him treating G. It was a fluke I ended up with this particular vet anyway as he is in massive demand and he just happened to be on call when I rang in a panic at the beginning of all this over the bank holiday weekend and he's treated him ever since. Usually to get a visit from him is a 3 week wait.

So. I'm not convinced, but having to force myself to have faith! Horse seems happy as larry so thats one thing I am not worried about. His mental state is not suffering from being kept in but mine is not great!!!!

 

[serenityjane]

If your horse has good, hard unshod feet, try to push for a good remedial trim rather than shoes- Read Jaime Jacksons- Founder it's prevention and cure as previous post, this will fully explain why a good trim followed by frequent further trims may be better.
I have a laminitis prone horse who also has COPD and she has very good quality hay (almost haylage, so dust free) weighed, with an equal weight of very good quality barley straw, mixed together in a double haynet, we do not soak the hay, but she has a limited amount daily and the remainder is straw, she also has 4 hours turn-out daily on a 'fatty-track'/ practically bare paddock, otherwise she is turned out in a large stone and tarmac area.
She has coped well with this system so far this year, after a mild attack just before christmas (she was having the hay ad-lib, but no grass, just bare turnout then!!!)
The straw has been the answer to be honest- she is out 24/7 with two other horses, has plenty to eat and is stimulated to move constantly for her food. We also excercise her at least 5 times a week.
Maybe mix your soaked haylage with good quality (dust free) straw. But you must be strong as the straw is the last to be eaten obviously, and of course provide plenty of water.

 

[seoirse]

If your horse has good, hard unshod feet, try to push for a good remedial trim rather than shoes- Read Jaime Jacksons- Founder it's prevention and cure as previous post, this will fully explain why a good trim followed by frequent further trims may be better.

Perhaps I better get a copy for my vet as well

I have to admit I am keen to keep him without shoes if possible, not just because I do believe that at this early stage he should only be being trimmed, I only had shoes on him prior to this cos he'd mangled his foot, and they'd have come off once his foot had recovered, generally he is barefoot and happier that way. But if shoes are the way forward I am not against them being put on. I just want to make sure we get this right!

Anyway I am not convinced we'll actually be at the stage where we can put shoes on in 10 days, however, he will need xraying by then and is close to needing a trim, so things might work out that he ends up just being trimmed.

I need to call my farrier and update on yesterdays vets visit and see what he thinks too.

 

[WandaMare]

Glad things are looking more promising for your horse, hope he continues well with his recovery.

That's interesting about the inflammation, I knew you had to reduce bute intake slowly but wasn't sure why..

I have been surprised in the past when my vet has given the go ahead to get on with trimming even when the pony's feet are still quite sore but so far he has been right and after a day or so his feet have shown good improvement after the farrier's visit.

Good luck, you are doing well for your boy, no wonder he is happy

 

[fatpiggy]

Deffo get him some ACP. He'll be calmer and it helps with blood flow so better for his laminitis too. I've seen good results from wearing magnetic boots. Could you borrow some (or wraps)?