Laminitis problem and ventral edema any ideas/help/advice please

T

ticki

Member
Joined
9 January 2006
Messages
28
Visit site
My 12 year old 15.3 mare came down with laminitis 3 weeks ago. She was immediately brought in and vet said deep litter with shavings and full bed, well soaked hay for minimum of 1 hour soaking. He was loathed to give pain killers at first as she had walked in and he didn't want her to feel too good and move around too much. I tried keeping bed full and deep littering but livery owner, who was looking after her for me kept doing full muck outs and sweeping bed back which meant my horse had to stand on concrete to eat, drink or look over stable door. I wanted to move her to previous livery yard where my friend could look after her in my absence (I am in process of moving) and she'd be kept on full shavings bed, deep littered and on rubber matting. Livery owner said my horse was too ill to travel and I'd be in trouble with welfare if I tried. My horse deteriorated further and a new vet attended as my vet was unable to come. This vet gave her bute injection, put her on bute powders, put pads and bandages on front feet and stressed bed was to be full, deep littered and left spare bandages to redo the pads on her front feet if they wore through or came off. Also said feet needed trimming as too long, (I'd asked two weeks previously for her feet to be trimmed but the livery owner said they didn't need doing).
The following day the livery owner had the farrier trim her feet as he'd come to do another horse on the yard. My horse kept lying down more and the vet said this was good as she wasn't putting weight on her feet all the time as long as she was eating and drinking. Also I hadn't realised that livery owner had left 4 day old soaked hay in net until she told the vet when I was there so she hadn't been eating much. The bed was still not deep littered and still kept being swept back despite my pulling it forward and explaining again to the livery owner. The foot bandages had been taken off for farrier but never replaced. I was told they'd kept coming off but none of the spare bandages had been used so I didn't believe this. I was having great difficulties with the yard owner but had to bite my tongue as I was depending on her and so desperately wanted to move my horse. I got in touch with my vet again and he agreed it was in my horse's best interest to move to the other yard if possible. He came out, trimmed her toes more and said there was some slight break down of the laminae but it really didn't seem too bad and he said her pedal bone hadn't dropped as no hollow above hoof and no dropped sole. He bandaged pads over the frogs of her front feet, gave her a bute injection and once that had taken effect she stood up and walked slowly and carefully from stable to trailer and loaded almost straight away. I drove extremely carefully with vet following to the other yard where he reexamined her and she seemed very settled as her old friend was in the stable next door and she was in the stable she used to be in. Full deep shavings bed on rubber matting for whole of stable. She ate, drank and went mad for the natural salt block in the stable. She had sweated a bit during the journey but it was a hot day. This was last Wednesday. Since then she has gradually deteriorated. Pressure sores have developed on both elbows, the outside of one knee and one fetlock joint. Also appetite has reduced and she now only eats when hay actually held out to her and drinks when water taken to her. The vet came out again last night as she was just lying down all yesterday and didn't eat much. She also hadn't passed faeces (or ursine as far as we were aware). He examined her and got her to stand. She was shaking and very tense sitting back on her heels. She's been on two bute morning and night (4 sachets per day) which we give watered down in a syringe as she won't eat the hifi lite mix I was recommended to use. He gave her bute injection again and manually evacuated her bowels. He then put tube through nose to stomach and gave solution of electrolytes and liquid paraffin. Unfortunately this gave her a nose bleed which did eventually stop. He also gave her an antibiotic injection and left powders for her for the next 5 days. He also dressed the pressure sores which had appeared the day after she arrived from the other yard. He said they develop from the inside out and can take 2'or 3 days to appear and that they'd get worse. He said he couldn't think of anything else we could do at this stage and that they do go up and down although the intention is to X-ray in a week or two. We placed piles of well soaked hay around her stable and eventually left her for the night. She did more droppings before we left.
This morning she was standing up when my friend arrived and she thought she may not have lay down all night as there didn't seem to be any indentation in her bed. She was given the bute and antibiotics orally in a syringe and she was still standing when I arrived at 11. By 11.30 she had lay back down. She drank approximately 2 buckets of water and ate about half a section of soaked hay by the time I left at 2pm. She was still lying down at 6 and was got up (vet said to make sure she got up at least once morning and night). She now won't eat hay offered or drink and has developed a loosed lump of fluid (odema) on the rear part of her belly just in front of her hind leg. This can be squished and moved and is very loose. She has done droppings and urinated this evening too. I've sent all this in message to the vet as he asked me to report back to him today but I've not heard anything back so it asuming it's not urgent.
Any thoughts, experiences, advice - anything please?
 
Last edited:
sorry to hear this - i think keep working with your vet and if you're not sure ring him rather than text to get an answer- they can get toxic shock with laminitis so you need to watch for this.
 
This horse requires more intervention from the vet, she did not get appropriate treatment early on along with the negligence by the YO and is still deteriorating, the vet cannot know what is going on inside without xrays he is guessing that there is no rotation, she is at risk of going into shock, getting a serious colic and if she were mine I would want the vet first thing in the morning to take bloods, xrays and start a more proactive treatment plan.
Do you have any idea why she got it in the first place as that can have a bearing on what you do to treat her, I hope she gets over it but to me this sounds extremely serious and I would certainly have expected some response from the vet today even if it was a simple speak first thing tomorrow reply.
 
be positive said:
This horse requires more intervention from the vet, she did not get appropriate treatment early on along with the negligence by the YO and is still deteriorating, the vet cannot know what is going on inside without xrays he is guessing that there is no rotation, she is at risk of going into shock, getting a serious colic and if she were mine I would want the vet first thing in the morning to take bloods, xrays and start a more proactive treatment plan.
Do you have any idea why she got it in the first place as that can have a bearing on what you do to treat her, I hope she gets over it but to me this sounds extremely serious and I would certainly have expected some response from the vet today even if it was a simple speak first thing tomorrow reply.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was thinking. The fact that the horse has stopped drinking would have me seriously concerned and honestly if it was my horse I think I would drop everything and be up at the yard monitoring her personally. I know this may not be possible for you but they can go downhill so quickly.
I know the horse is only 12 but it is possible that the laminitis could be cushings related so I would be having bloods done.
Laminitis is a horrible thing. I lost a mare to it 15 years ago and my current horse has cushings so is high risk (diagnosed aged 14) so I know what you are going through. Fingers crossed for your mare.
 
I would want to be checking her overnight, a vet visit first thing in the morning and get your vet to give the YO a rollicking. And when your mare is better I would be moving her to another yard.
 
Thank you everyone. We are going to drive over now to see what we can do and I will call the vet if necessary. She has had bloods done and the cushings reading was borderline. My vet said he didn't think this would have been due to cushings as the level was only borderline. She was overweight and although the pasture wasn't really lush, there was a good bit of rough pulling there. Other horses on the same place were cobbier and not as overweight as she had become. Yard owner originally told me she thought my horse had a foot abcess yet she was standing in typical laminitis stance when I went to her. We are leaving now to go to her.
 
You need X-rays done tomorrow. I would be very very concerned about her. I would also be taking measures against your ex yo! My tb got laminitis. He was 19 and always been difficult to get weight on. Vet said he was very slightly over weight (530kg and we wanted him down to 500kg) but for him he was fat. We tested for cushyngs and he didn't have it. I am sure it is because he has been aeninretired after and active life and so put weight on. Immediately after the episode (which was originally misdiagnosed by another vet) he also got aspirin and acp along side his Bute. And I iced his feet. X-rays were done the next day to find out exactly what we were dealing with.

A friend horse had laminitis at the same time. She was at vet school after a slightly odd presentation. She was recumbent for a week. She was put in imprint shoes (glue on heart bars) and made a full recovery.
 
Your horse needs well marked xrays asap,sole supports until proper trim can realign her pedal bone.She will get immediate relief after realigning trimming.Please study the Laminitis Site Protocol for acute laminitis.She sounds like she is insulin resistant (EMS) which can be managed once you sort her feet out.
 
We've just returned from the yard. She is still lying down but drank a few times when presented with water and took about 3/4 of a bucketful by the time we left. She seems more comfortable than last night when we had the vet out. She is also eating soaked hay when we left - she originally refused it when we got there. I put creM on her sores again and we left her with soaked hay within reach which she was eating. I will phone the vet in the morning and my friend is going to her at about 6am. Thank you all for your help and advice which I am taking on board and will be acting on ��
 
Thank you everyone for replying. We went down that night and she drank water and ate some hay. The next day she seemed to be improved and for the first time in what seemed like ages she went over and drank water and ate some hay whilst standing. The vet came yesterday and took X Ray's, there has been no sinking of pedal bone but there is some rotation. He said he didn't want to take any more from toe at this stage for fear of exposing the laminae but is hoping to be able to in about two weeks. She's continuing on bute and as we have been as he says that is all we can do for now. He was guarded when I asked if she was going to be ok and just said hopefully and provided she doesn't have a flare up. He said it will be the best part of a year before she's right again and that basically it will take as long as the hoof takes to grow and be trimmed over time to Raleigh with pedal bone position. We're not sure if there was another secondary infection going on at the same time but she does seem improved slightly. He said to be prepared that she will drop condition and end up looking quite poor but rather that than have the laminitis flare up again. He said she'd be kept in her stable for.at least 3 months and can't even be led out onto concrete yard. He was so very careful with the foot she was standing on each time he took an X ready of the opposing foot ensuring it was stood on plenty of shavings and everything was done in the stable where a thick be of shavings is over full rubber matting. I don't know enough ebonite it yet in terms of future management but essentially we have to get there first taking things one stage at a time. It will be a long process.
 
The vet originally wanted to return with farrier to trim with X Ray's but the yard owner, despite being there when the vet said this, had the farrier trim her feet when he came to the yard the following day and the first I knew was when she told me I owed her the money for the trim. Two weeks previous when I'd asked the yard owner for the farrier to trim her feet she told me my horse didn't need her feet timing as they were fine!
 
I have to say I also wouldn't let most vets trim my horse, especially one who if the story is as it reads wouldn't fill me with confidence about their ability.

It still doesn't sound good tbh and I don't know why the vet is saying there is nothing else to be done, Is bute the only thing this horse is on medication wise? I would also be researching putting imprints on if you want to keep her going. Depending on where you are you might even be able to get andrew poynton to come out and put them on, he has done more than one users on here and led to a big increase in comfort. This horse needs to be made a lot more comfortable than what you have described.

Frankly if I were insistent on continuing I would be getting some serious second opinions for treatment.
 
I don't get the feeling that this horse is getting the best treatment to aid her recovery.
I wasn't aware vets could trim and I wouldn't have been happy for a vet to trim my horse when she was bad with lami.
She had x rays and my farrier then trimmed according to the angles on that. They shouldn't have trimmed before the x ray!

Is there another vet you could use for a second opinion? I worry that she is in a lot of pain and needs something more doing to help her.
 
Sedalin was one of the things that did seem to help my boy.

Have they run cushings and metabolic tests? If not they need to be done ASAP. They came back negative in my case but he was put on Metformin anyway on the basis that it couldnt hurt and may well help.

There are much stronger pain killers than bute. If shes still in pain on bute then I would be asking for those.

I'd also take myself off somewhere quiet with a friend you trust and talk through the prognosis both short and long term, and what the options are both now and in the future.

I know other people will disagree with me, but in your shoes I would be considering PTS as a very real option. There comes a point where the short term suffering isnt worth the long term gain. For what its worth I put mine through 4 months of trying to save him, including an emergency move to a rehabilitation yard. He was still PTS in the end and I wish I had done it right at the beginning. Hindsight however is a wonderful thing! :(
 
I can't believe that farrier trimmed the horse knowing it had laminitis without looking at X ray's I think I would be speaking to him, how much bute is she on it sounds like the pain is not under control which is really important so I would would speak to your vet about increasing it my horse was on 6 bute a day to start with,

sedalin is also good for getting the blood circulating around the feet a small dose of a few mls a day is usually enough, in regards to the lumps in her tummy region this can be a sign of low protein due to not eating enough I would get bloods taken, if protein levels drop to low it can be fatal and it can make them feel quite ill so it won't be helping with her recovery.

I really know what your going through I unfortunately lost my mare 2 years ago to laminitis and live in constant paranoia that my other horses will get it, I had a bit of a scare last week but fortunately my horse was just sore footed due to shoe removal, as Leo above as said pts would for me also be an option sometimes the suffering is just not worth it and it's soul destroying to see I don't think I could go through it again, I really hope she starts to turn a corner please keep us updated and I will be keeping fingers crossed.
 
I know you must be swimming in information and opinions at the moment, and how worrying it can be, but what the vet(?) said about not trimming too much incase he exposed the laminae is absolute ******. The white line is the laminae where it is exposed to the outside world.

If there has been rotation, then you need to work with a farrier (or trimmer) who can realign the bone within the hoof capsule to the correct angles. how much can be done at once depends on the severity of the rotation and how much sole depth there is.

The laminitis won't get any better until the bones are in the correct alignment (the hoof will continue to grow more quickly at the heel which doesn't correct the rotation).

Frog supports are a must. These can be taped on or used within boots. Booting with pads is preferable, as then you can trim the feet little and often.

Despite what you have been told, movement is good for horses with laminitis - as long as a) they are out of the acute phase - i.e. the cause has been discovered and removed b) the pain is managed and c) they are allowed to move at their own pace. Movement along with frog supports permits healthier blood flow to the feet - better blood flow = faster recovery.

Even if your horse is not metabolic, or until you get the results of any tests, I encourage you to join the ECIR forum. There is a mine of up to date information, and extremely helpful support staff, including vets, who can help guide you.
 
Thank you for your responses and yes, my head has been spinning with it all and just trying to do the right thing by her. I trust my vet to advise me and do the right thing by her as he's always done in the past. There has been some slight improvement in that she appears a little more comfortable when she's standing, is eating slightly better and is more interested in the comings and goings on outside her stable. Her pressure sores have worsened and can't be bandages as they're all on joints - elbow, knee, fetlock and we are trying to keep clean and putting barrier cream on left by the vet. She's had bloods done and all is ok there. I asked th vet if he thought she would be ok now and he was guarded in his reply saying that she possibly will be provided the laminitis didn't flare up again. My vet is an equine vet and he has worked all over the world. He cares and is, as always, doing his best. I had already broached the subject of being euthanised and he said that he'd have suggested that if he thought it but we never got to the stage where he did and I hope we don't.
He's coming again next week, unless we need him before this.
Thank you again for the replies.
 
I am really glad she seems better I am keeping fingers crossed for you please let us know how she goes it is a stressful time dealing with laminitis so take care of yourself x
 
this all goes to show just how careful we need to be with any horse that is even a bit overweight and not working hard several times a week, and hope anyone reading poor ticki`s posts and having any doubt in their minds about their own horses will take action to prevent the same happening to their horse, whilst appreciating there are hormonal causes, lack of work and simply too much food are something we control.

its a strange thing but my grandfather who was in the cavalry in the middle east for years, said when they had a horse with lami they would gallop it across the desert and get rid of it that way, how they got lami in the desert is beyond me and how galloping it cured it i can`t say, but my experience of it leads me to the conclusion that expansion and contraction of the hoof during movement, is part of the treatment through stimulation of the circulation for one thing, but i have to say lami remains one of the most distressing and difficult longterm conditions to deal with for both horse and owner to be avoided at all costs wherever possible.

best wishes to you ticki and your horse.
 
tristar said:
this all goes to show just how careful we need to be with any horse that is even a bit overweight and not working hard several times a week, and hope anyone reading poor ticki`s posts and having any doubt in their minds about their own horses will take action to prevent the same happening to their horse, whilst appreciating there are hormonal causes, lack of work and simply too much food are something we control.

its a strange thing but my grandfather who was in the cavalry in the middle east for years, said when they had a horse with lami they would gallop it across the desert and get rid of it that way, how they got lami in the desert is beyond me and how galloping it cured it i can`t say, but my experience of it leads me to the conclusion that expansion and contraction of the hoof during movement, is part of the treatment through stimulation of the circulation for one thing, but i have to say lami remains one of the most distressing and difficult longterm conditions to deal with for both horse and owner to be avoided at all costs wherever possible.

best wishes to you ticki and your horse.
Click to expand...

Sometimes you think you've got it right and they still get it :( My small pony is currently recovering quite well. She was slightly overweight but vet doesn't think that caused it, not EMS, works hard driving and went on short term loan to a riding school while I move house. They continued to work her (ridden), restricted turnout in a poor paddock, very little hay and out with larger ponies who would have driven her off it and it took 10 days for an acute episode. It is even more worrying that can't identify the cause, unless it was stress from the move. Regarding the desert horses, if you follow PFK (Egyptian charity) then it is very common due to lack of forage.

Ticki, I hope your mare continues to improve.
 
millikins, that`s what i mean really even when you think you have it all right you can get it, so if things are going in the wrong direction management wise or you suspect the horse is a candidate for lami act quickly to prevent if possible.

i believe the army horses were allowed certain ration and fed by weight.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top