laminitis prone cob won’t keep muzzle on!!

[Rachael42]

Hi,
Wondering if anyone has any ideas to what I can do with a very fat laminitic prone cob that won’t keep a muzzle on or catch when in the field. He’s on a small livery yard so no choice to section field and no access to a less grassy field. He’s kept in at night with little hay in a haynet as he’s also a pig. He’s out during the day but keeps removing his muzzle no matter what I try to keep it on 😡can’t even put him out for a very short period of time as he’s difficult to catch. Hes already really obese and am really worried he’s going to go lami again. Is there anything I can give him to help with weight loss?? anything is worth a try at this point!

 

[Red-1]

It won't be what you want to hear, but if your current yeard does not give you the facilities you need, you may need to change yards.

One livery yard local to us had a lami prone pony arrive and they built a "dry lot" area for it. Another yard I had a lesson at had a full all weather track system with many horses out on it, and varied terrains. It was a true paradise for lami horses.

I know another yard where a lami prone horse was kept in the hardcore corridor between paddocks. It did a job.

 

[Rachael42]

Unfortunately it’s not an option he has to stay where he is! But thanks anyway

 

[windand rain]

No choice he will either need to move to more suitable livery or you will have a laminitic cob. Muzzles only work if they are kept on, a horse can eats its required ration of grass in about 30 minutes if it gorges because it has been muzzled or restricted and it gets onto good grass. You have been lucky so far but it wont last. He needs either a track or dry lot area or you need to tie plait and super glue his muzzle to his head because at the momement it is neither use not ornament. Not literally of course but you will have to find one he cannot get off so try every brand going
I hate muzzles for this very reason so would find somewhere more suitable that he didnt have to wear one

 

[Rachael42]

No choice he will either need to move to more suitable livery or you will have a laminitic cob. Muzzles only work if they are kept on, a horse can eats its required ration of grass in about 30 minutes if it gorges because it has been muzzled or restricted and it gets onto good grass. You have been lucky so far but it wont last. He needs either a track or dry lot area or you need to tie plait and super glue his muzzle to his head because at the momement it is neither use not ornament. Not literally of course but you will have to find one he cannot get off so try every brand going
I hate muzzles for this very reason so would find somewhere more suitable that he didnt have to wear one

I asked for advice That’s all, I have said it’s not possible moving him I was asking for advice from people who had been in my situation and have friendly, helpful advice but thanks anyway 👍

 

[shergar]

Have you tried a plait in the forelock over and under the head piece of the muzzle and secured with a tight elastic band ,or would another livery be able to turn out on your paddock at night to reduce the amount of grass, can you increase the work the horse does more riding or lunging . o

 

[EllenJay]

Personally- I wouldn't turn out, until you get the weight off him. Keep him in, up the exercise, test for Cushings, and put him on a VERY strict diet. If you can't/won't change his grazing environment then you need to manage it.

 

[Rachael42]

Have you tried a plait in the forelock over and under the head piece of the muzzle and secured with a tight elastic band ,or would another livery be able to turn out on your paddock at night to reduce the amount of grass, can you increase the work the horse does more riding or lunging . o

Yeah I tried the plaiting but he just pulled it over his nose 🤦🏻‍♀️, I honestly don’t know how he does it, the muzzle fits. I’ll definitely look at increasing his lunging and exercise though! Thanks!

 

[Rachael42]

Personally- I wouldn't turn out, until you get the weight off him. Keep him in, up the exercise, test for Cushings, and put him on a VERY strict diet. If you can't/won't change his grazing environment then you need to manage it.

Thanks, the vets due out next week anyway so I’ll definitely get them to look at testing for cushings! Never even come to mind thanks!

 

[vmac66]

Is there enough room in your Paddock to section a bit of with electric tape. This is what I've done with my mare who had lami earlier this year. She is in during the day with about 5k soaked Hay. I'm am ensuring that her total food intake does not exceed 1.5 percent of her body weight. Every net is weighed. I have just started to up her exercise. She has lost nearly 50 kilos since May. Hope this helps. You have to be very hard hearted when dealing with lami or lami prone

 

[Rachael42]

Can anyone suggest any exercise ideas for him to do? Obviously I don’t want to put to much strain on him with him being so overweight, he gets lunged in walk and trot currently.

Is there enough room in your Paddock to section a bit of with electric tape. This is what I've done with my mare who had lami earlier this year. She is in during the day with about 5k soaked Hay. I'm am ensuring that her total food intake does not exceed 1.5 percent of her body weight. Every net is weighed. I have just started to up her exercise. She has lost nearly 50 kilos since May. Hope this helps. You have to be very hard hearted when dealing with lami or lami prone

unfortunately the yard owner won’t let me, that was my first thought. But thanks for the advice!

 

[HappyHollyDays]

Swimming is one of the best non weight bearing exercise for horses prone to laminitis. It sheds the pounds, kick starts the metabolism and not a muzzle in sight 😁

 

[BeckyFlowers]

Not really sure what you expect people to say. Windandrain gave you advice and it wasn't rude or unhelpful and you replied with what appears to be an attitude. You have an obese cob who previously has had laminitis and you won't move him to a more suitable yard or fence him off for whatever reasons, and he won't keep a muzzle on so what do you expect people to say? You have acknowledged the strain you will put on him by working him more that walk and trot so again, what is it you want people to say to you? The only other solution is to keep him and treat him as if he is in the middle of a laminitic episode. Maybe the vet will be able to talk some sense into you. Either that or you will be faced with a crippled horse. I'm not usually harsh with people who ask for advice but it's absolutely unacceptable to have a lami-prone horse and let him get in that state again, and you need to seriously consider whether you are able to meet this horse's needs for his welfare and health.

 

[Leo Walker]

You wont do this with exercise alone I'm afraid. Mines out overnight in a muzzle, shes in during the day with limited hay mixed with straw and shes working pretty hard. Yesterday in 24degrees we went 6.6kms pulling a carriage with 2 heavy adults in, and we trotted 80% of it. Shes working hard and is reasonably fit and yet shes not losing weight.

The grass this year is insane. There has been 3 times as much growth as the previous 2 years.

I'm sorry if you dont want to hear this, but if you dont do something and do it now, your pony is going to catch laminitis and being a heavy cob the chances of recovery are very slim and then you will have a dead cob on your hands. Dont let it get to that stage!

Get him in off the grass and work him gently 3 times a day until you can find somewhere more suitable to keep him.

 

[windand rain]

Sorry you did not like the advice but you did ask I tried to get across the seriousness of your situation with humour but I guess you want to hear how you can leave him on loads of grass with ever increasing weight. It is simply not possible. If you cannot give him the turnout he can live with then he must stay in 24/7 on soaked hay be mucked out three or four times a day as he will pee loads more a deep bed and a lot perhaps 4 or more hours of gentle exercise 1.5% of his body weight in food per 24 hours must be weighed before soaking and a very careful obsevation that you do not cause even bigger problems by starving him. Good luck my comment to start was that is will be both cheaper and easier to move him to more suitable grazing still applies and would in fact be in his best interest

 

[teddypops]

Can anyone suggest any exercise ideas for him to do? Obviously I don’t want to put to much strain on him with him being so overweight, he gets lunged in walk and trot currently.

unfortunately the yard owner won’t let me, that was my first thought. But thanks for the advice!

This is a serious welfare issue, why won’t the yard owner allow it?

 

[Red-1]

I did preface my original post with the fact that you would not want to hear my answer, but even so I found your replies to be somewhat unhelpful in the spirit of helping your cob. If the yard can't help you in suitable grazing then he will either have to stay in or move. You have indicated that moving is out, muzzles don't stay on, you can't restrict grazing by a smaller paddock or dry lot, you can't restrict grazing by limiting time out...

If this is all set in stone then he could stay in, but then I would want him out hacking for at least 2 hours a day, including hill work (if he is obese then obviously starting with less time then building up).

Is there seriously no area on this yard that could be fenced off as a sin paddock? It could be 20m X 20m or even less, so at least he gets a change of scene. If he is a sensible sort I have even known concrete areas work for this, although it is not ideal.

Horses all have different needs sadly. One of mine needed 6'6 fences or he would have a laugh. It was a royal pain, but that was what was needed. My current one does not do well on lush fields, so we had to tape off a 20m X 20m area and even then use a lawnmower to scalp it before she was allowed access. She is now on a larger area but only for an hour in the morning and 2 at night, on a dry lot the rest of the day. She has never had lami, but puts weight on easily and I simply don't have time to do enough exercise to keep her trim at the moment if she had grass unlimited. But, with this regime she is a perfect weight.

Lami is very serious, can be fatal, and if he has already had it then it is more likely to occur. I would also do the tests to see if he is more prone from something that could be resolved.

 

[tallyho!]

I agree serious welfare issue. Dead horse walking. All very sensible suggestions.

I have two that need muzzling. You need to get the throatlatch as tight as possible under the cheekbones or else they get it off. Not on the throat obviously or else they would choke. You need to have it so they can't get it over the ears.

You need to do more than lunge for half an hour. If you can do more than5 miles twice a day (2 hours or so). Managing a laminitic is hard work. I have to get up early doors to fit this in work and family - luckily we have been given a large woods to turn out in with no grass - this is working well as they walk all day foraging and only get 1 net each a night.

Its just like humans... calorie deficit is the key to losing weight.

 

[Micky]

Have you tried putting muzzle on and then weaving his head collar over the top of it? We had a wee pony who was an expert at getting the muzzle off until we did this, and it worked for her..? Otherwise it’s as others say, soaked hay at 1.5% bodyweight, ride lunge ride ride lunge..ask the owner if you can section off part of field and strip graze? Or move..

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I agree that the management, either yard or field, needs to change but in the meantime when you bring him in to a small amount of hay, also give him a trug of plain oat straw chaff - Honeychop do a good one, so that he will feel full when he goes out and won't be so prone to gorging.

 

[Pinkvboots]

We used a field safe headcollar and tied the muzzle to it, as one of my horses was removing it off the ponys head!

Be very careful one my horses has just got laminitis and not obese, his only got it slightly and only in one foot apparently vets are seeing this more often now rather than in both fronts, it makes it harder to diagnose because it can present as an abscess.

 

[TPO]

What kind of muzzle are you using? Theres a whole range of them and some of them are harder to remove than others.

It can be a cause for concern because it is nylon and not field safe but the Green Guard muzzle and headcollar set up, if fitted correctly and with a forelock/mane plait for extra security, is pretty impossible to get off.

I feel your pain, my mum also acquired a fat cob with all sorts going on so that exercise is very minimal currently and the build up is very slow so exercise alone won't doing it.

I cant see why any YO wouldn't let you tape off a small grazed down section as any YO who's been around horses for any length of time will know the devastation and pain of laminitis. Heck they should be having a go at you if your horse is already this bad!

It might cost you £££ buying a new muzzle, electric posts, tape, battery and energiser plus the time to poo pick, soak hay and ensure fresh, clean water twice a day and ride/exercise twice a day but that's a lot cheaper and less time consuming than dealing with laminitis.

Hopefully you take some of the advice on this thread on board.

 

[Leo Walker]

It might cost you £££ buying a new muzzle, electric posts, tape, battery and energiser plus the time to poo pick, soak hay and ensure fresh, clean water twice a day and ride/exercise twice a day but that's a lot cheaper and less time consuming than dealing with laminitis.

3k the insurance paid to the vets, 1k I paid to the vets, 1.5k in rehab livery, plus all the other associated costs and i still ended up with a dead horse

 

[Pearlsasinger]

3k the insurance paid to the vets, 1k I paid to the vets, 1.5k in rehab livery, plus all the other associated costs and i still ended up with a dead horse

Actually, it feels wrong to 'like' this post but I agree with the costs which mount up alarmingly.

 

[SEL]

Personally I wouldn't want a high risk pony out on unlimited grass even with a muzzle on - they can get quite a lot through them.

But my tricks for keeping them on were headcollar over the top of the muzzle and fly mask over the top of all of it. That worked but it wasn't particularly field safe so just ask other liveries to check if they are out there catching their own horses.

 

[SEL]

BTW - my mare is on a paddock which looks pretty bald and gets a small net of soaked hay x 2 per day and she isn't dropping weight. The fields either side are due to be cut for hay soon and the grass is thigh high. The reason it isn't thigh high in her paddock is because she's eating it - they can get a lot when it seems like there isn't much out there!!

 

[TPO]

BTW - my mare is on a paddock which looks pretty bald and gets a small net of soaked hay x 2 per day and she isn't dropping weight. The fields either side are due to be cut for hay soon and the grass is thigh high. The reason it isn't thigh high in her paddock is because she's eating it - they can get a lot when it seems like there isn't much out there!!

Plus short/grazed down grass is stressed and higher in sugars than long old grass so theres more calories in it 🙈

It's been a nightmare year managing fatties! Now because we've been managing and rotating grazing our big field is too long so need to get cattle in to clear it to let new growth through for winter fodder. Absolute minefield with the way the weather has been 😥

 

[SEL]

Plus short/grazed down grass is stressed and higher in sugars than long old grass so theres more calories in it 🙈

It's been a nightmare year managing fatties! Now because we've been managing and rotating grazing our big field is too long so need to get cattle in to clear it to let new growth through for winter fodder. Absolute minefield with the way the weather has been 😥

I let the draft onto the rested bit for an hour in the morning and he comes off it stuffed and goes for a snooze - plus you can't tell he's been there. I swear its growing around them this year. Wind the clock back 12 months and it was all burnt off and even the mare had access to the whole field.

 

[tiahatti]

I haven't read every word of tea replies but have you put a headcollar on over the muzzle? This might have been suggested already. I found this helped give the muzzle on.

 

[JFTDWS]

There is no magic bullet, nobody can give you a nice easy answer that will work. Having chunky horses at this time of year is hard work - there's no two ways about it. Mine are switched between well grazed land and better grass as and when I see fit, and they're worked more than most people can reasonably manage, yet they're still bigger than I'd like this year.

Horses aren't always easy to keep - that may not be your fault, but it's your responsibility to fix it.