Laminitis - Restricting Grass Intake

tallyho!

tallyho!

Following a strict mediterranean diet...
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In H&H this week, an article outlining a study done in Aberystwyth which showed restricting grass is not ideal as ponies gorge in the short time they are allowed grazing has been pooh-poohed by Dr R. Eustace (Lami Trust).

I think this is extremely short sighted.

Why do we as a nation, particularly our experts, refuse to consider, or even look for alternatives?
 
Touching wood...
I've owned two "good doers" and people would regularly look at them and say "laminitis risk, need to restrict grazing". Well, as far as I know neither of these heavyweights have had their grazing restricted in the past, and I didn't restrict them. Bearing in mind that I'm not talking over-cultivated or fertilised fields here, both of mine went out on grass the same as my other horses. Ideally in a situation where they needed to move about a bit or on a hill. I notice that the "fat" pones seem to spend a lot of time dozing and daydreaming when the grass is lush, say when the fields are changed. In winter, always ad lib hay.
I still have one in my field, she is fed year round with Top Spec Anti Lam, and when taken off her feed she bulked up and got cresty, so I put her back on and the wobbly bits went away.
Isn't it the case that if you restrict and rotate your grazing you are in danger of creating constantly stressed and growing grass high in sugar? I can also see that you might create a horse that got the habit of stuffing any food it could as fast and for as long as it could because it had lean times in the past. I know that many horses I know that are on restricted grazing and a tiny bit of hay overnight seem to struggle to stay at a reasonable weight, whereas normally my pony, although she is big, doesn't seem to get that obese look.
Of course, there can be other triggers for lami, and I sometimes wonder if the grass gets blamed when there was another reason. Stress, concussion, even a particular wormer or drug for example.
 
tallyho! said:
In H&H this week, an article outlining a study done in Aberystwyth which showed restricting grass is not ideal as ponies gorge in the short time they are allowed grazing has been pooh-poohed by Dr R. Eustace (Lami Trust).

I think this is extremely short sighted.

Why do we as a nation, particularly our experts, refuse to consider, or even look for alternatives?
Click to expand...




What reason do they give for refuting it?
 
TGM said:
H&H says 'Robert Eustace ... was surprised by the findings. "That has not been my experience" he said. "Restricting grassintake is the only known way to prevent laminitis".'
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I'm sorry Robert Eustace but I disagree with this sweeping statement. I have a pony who when yarded got laminitis from changing over to haylage and I'm pretty certain her recovery has been hampered by batches of high sugar hay.

It is far, far more complex than just restricting grass imo.:(
 
Our lami has been out on really long grass for a year after years of having nothing. Not even a sign of it.
The long grass and i mean about a foot high, is basically dead and has nothing in it.
It is the short sweet grass that does the damage and that is what a horse on restricted grazing ends up eatting, a patch of mud will grow sweet shoots that we don't notice as pony eatten before you see them.

Another way to solve the problem is to take all thier teeth out, our old lami has lost most of his and is grazing in big field with all our others, as he doesn't have the teeth he can't get the short grass and grazes the long bigs and in the hedge. Again no lami.
 
Has he actually 'pooh poohed' the study or is he just expressing that caution needs to be taken in interpreting the results?

As an owner of a pony who has had laminitis in the past and who I don't want to see come down with it again I can understand anyone, especially a respected expert such as Robert Eustace treating any study such as this with caution in case it risks people thinking that their fat ponies and horses are not at risk of laminitis after all. We know there are more triggers for laminitis than gorging on lush spring grass but it is still a very common cause especially for ponies who are overweight and not in work.
 
Alot of research is ongoing into what actually causes laminitus, as far as we've been taught the cause isn't known. There are a majority of factors which are thought to contribute to the onset of the condition, but nothing has been concluded.
I think these factors can also vary according to what type of pasture your on, its history and the horse concerned, hence why restricting grass (fructose) intake will work for some cases, but not for others.
 
TGM said:
H&H says 'Robert Eustace ... was surprised by the findings. "That has not been my experience" he said. "Restricting grassintake is the only known way to prevent laminitis".'
Click to expand...

Bit of a sweeping statement isnt it! Im pretty sure a mare with a retained placenta would get laminitis even if on no grass, likewise my lad got it when on no grass, because he was in a cast on his other leg and couldn't weight bear evenly :(

I can understand him being cautious about the results of the study, but I hope he isnt closed minded to the emerging research on the subject.
 
Wild ponies seem to cope very well. Thin mares foal easier. What bothers me is that people put muzzles on ponies and then feed them copious amounts of food bearing the approved feed logo (lami trust). Anyone know how much companies have to pay to use that logo on feeds? Call me an old cynic but someone may have a vested interest in ponies being fed this way:rolleyes:
 
Very interesting point re: small patch grazing yielding better quality short sweet shoots as I was just about to move my laminitic risk pig (he's a horse really he's just persona non grata now) into a small paddock to be restricted. Might seek for him to be tracked instead...
It's a bloody hard balance for all of us, and Ed is only LGL..
 
My horse had lami few years back, hasn't had it since touch wood, when turned out he is muzzled, he then can at least get some grass, luckily our paddock doesn't get really bare so hopefully its not stressed and is just normal rather than being extra sweet. He has been muzzled all winter with the odd half hour without it or like yesterday when he got it off and must have stood on it and it is no more ! Luckily it wasn't for long before YO got him in for me.

Don't know why my horse got it originally, he wasn't particularly overweight, ridden every day, fed fibre diet, he's 32 now so would have been 28/29 when he got it, maybe an age thing, dunno .................
 
WandaMare said:
Has he actually 'pooh poohed' the study or is he just expressing that caution needs to be taken in interpreting the results?

As an owner of a pony who has had laminitis in the past and who I don't want to see come down with it again I can understand anyone, especially a respected expert such as Robert Eustace treating any study such as this with caution in case it risks people thinking that their fat ponies and horses are not at risk of laminitis after all. We know there are more triggers for laminitis than gorging on lush spring grass but it is still a very common cause especially for ponies who are overweight and not in work.
Click to expand...

I see what you are saying WandaMare - however, the study is not saying lets put all our diabetic/insulin resistant/metabolically challenged or for want of a better word FAT (Sorry - no thin diabetics were in this study so none of your pregnant mare stories please) horses out on lush pasture all of a sudden as it's completely fine. It was only 8 fat mares.

It would be like putting a Burger King at the end of the cardiac ward (which incidentally is exactly where Southants Hospital put theirs)

It reveals what many other um, lets say, "passionate enthusiasts" have been saying for years (www.safergrass.org) and also what Robert has been also saying (in a way) that it's the sugar that's the problem - however, horses learn to gorge and therefore this negates our well thought out care plan for them.

Robert is saying that this is THE only way? I really hope not. Are the investigators saying that grass is a no-no? I think they are saying that restricted turnout is a bad as being out all day on it.

This is all backwards.

Replant grass species - there are less sugary grass out there.

Change grazing - new to me last year but Jamie Jackson has the right idea.

Bristol horseworld - more per paddock = less grazing + more playing

Any more ideas?
 
It isn't just grass. My pony is Insulin resistant and got Laminitus on Hay and high sugar chaff. He is now taking Metformin and is out with a grazing muzzle. (he gets a fair bith through it). His first IR test showed 900, it should be 85. It is now 400 and we have increased the metformin.

He is looking good now and is out with his muzzle for 5 hours a day. If you have a pony with Laminitus that does not seem to be typical, ask your vet about this test.
 
Kitsune said:
It's a bloody hard balance for all of us, and Ed is only LGL..
Click to expand...
So true. I'm sure it also depends on the individual horse, the grass itself as well as soil type, mineral status etc. etc. etc. etc. :(
I've learned over the last year how even hay can be very high in sugars and cause problems. :(
 
It isn't always about the amount of grass, it's the type of grass which is more important. Dairy pasture tends to be richer and even short dairy pasture can still be worse than a field with long grass which is poorer grazing.
 
It is a hard balance because I believe there is a link between fatness and laminitis, but then there is also the grass sugar content to take into account.

We're lucky that our laminitis prone pony can live without his grazing restricted from late autumn through to Spring. He gets no hard feed, never really rugged. He won't keep a muzzle on, I'd be too afraid not to restrict him. He gets a large area and a fresh strip of grass each day

I'd like to try a track system but our fields are so huge I'd need to spend some big cash to get a system that would allow this.
 
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