Laminitis - What to expect regarding improvements / recovery ?

[Beatrice5]

I think we have hit a wall

He still has a digital pulse that is easily felt, he walks picking his way, he has lost weight ( ribs easily felt, hips / shoulders seen easily , Crest floppy and dissapearing) but he still finds turning in his bed uncomfortable.

We are nearly a month into the weighed soaked hay, box rest ( bar the odd mooch in his pea gravel corral) he is fed a handful of happy hoof molasses free, a small cup of speedibeet, a teaspoon Maldon sea salt, a tea spoon cinnamon powder, a small measure Equine America vits/mins/probiotics and a scoop of garlic and a measure of Devils claw. Just run out of mag ox 3 days ago and it is awaiting collection from the post office monday.

Why is he still walking like a sore pony? Do I boot him in his stable? Thrush under control thanks to Athletes foot powder but I am worried boots will rub and feet will sweat if left on all day / night.

My gut instinct is to boot him and let him wander around his pea gravel corral and I feel movement will stimulate healing. He has rotation but if he is supported by his pads and boots will the movement ease the congestion in his feet or does it risk making his rotation worse ? He has IR but think his diet is compatable with this ( please tell me if you can spot anything to the contrary )

There seem to be so many different approaches, some say strict box rest for a month, some say the quicker you get them moving the better ? I am feeling like piggy in the middle. Box rest doesnt seem to be working plus he makes a real mess in the box so I am pretty sure he isn't resting that much. I swear he is quieter when he is allowed the corral so he can stand and chat to the girls in the adjacent corral / paddock.

I am not seeking this advice to replace my vet just to find out what others have done and what has worked for them. I will continue to work closely with my vet and farrier but appreciate input from others who have been through this before.

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

I would remove the molasses free chaff, and look carefully into the Devils Claw if a liquid version. Try something like Pro-balance or Forage plus instead of the Equine America as they are all inclusive so don't need the mag-ox either. If not able to go down that route, try adding vit-E so his feeds (I was feeding the caplets from Morrisons as couldn't find at the time just neat vit E!). Before I found Pro-balance, Nugz was on Equine america magnitude for pure magnesium, biotin, zinc and the Vit E capsules. He was also on more straw than soaked hay. I know sometimes being turned out can be beneficial for some lami horses, even those with rotation so might be worth checking with vets as seeing if this is a possibility? While weight loss is good, going too far the other way in too short a time can hinder recovery as well, especially if feeling the cold more than normal if not on top form. Have you tested for EMS/Cushings?

 

[OLDGREYMARE]

Please ask your question to the ems,ppid and laminitis facebook group,I and many others have recently joined ,the help they give you is brilliant.They will advise you on the correct diet and management for your horse.If you don;t do facebook then try The Laminitis Site on the web.If after a month he is still footsore and has strong pulses then you are missing something,hope this helps.I don't think he should be out of his box if the rotation hasn't been corrected.

 

[Beatrice5]

Devils claw is liquid version ? What am I looking carefully for ?

Yes he is EMS / IR but I thought diet was suitable for that ? Cushings test was clear.

As said the problem is he spins in his box yet stands quietly once outside. He is not used to be stabled as he came to us off the New Forest and we have always only had a field shelter , corral and paddock. So being in is very alien to him.

 

[Beatrice5]

How do I find the facebook Laminitus group - I am a bit novice at FB

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

Sorry, I thought you meant just turning round in his box, not as in getting stressed. If he is calmer outside, then maybe consider a small turnout paddock. As for the liquid Devils Claw, it can contain hidden sugar as is bitter normally so can be put in a sugary solution to make it more palatable.

In a blunt way, if he is still foot sore to the extent he sounds, then either there is something else amiss, or the diet is not working

The FB page is this: https://www.facebook.com/groups/475349259169277/?fref=ts and it might be worth looking at the following website as well: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet and look into the emergency diet.

 

[Micky]

I would ditch the garlic too, they don't really need it in their diet, if you must, once a week and a small amount at that...Def check out the facebook page PPID, Cushings and EMS, very informative etc .Try Dengie HI fi molasses free, much lower sugar content.

and it may be worth getting x rays of his feet, i was scared of the expense and what they would find but it wasnt that bad and his feet turned out to be fine too, means you can concentrate on another angle to improve him...if you understand me!

 

[BlackVelvet]

Get Xrays done asap if they have not already been done, you will not know the extent to the laminitis without them.
How long has he had lami? Laminitis can take months to heal and feel better. Mine took 3 months to be sound and comfortable, he had EMS also and no rotation.
I dont personally believe movement to be beneficial in the recovery (each to their own obviously) but there is not a chance i would have made mine walk around in agony!
Mine was on complete box rest with danalon and sedation so layed down and took the weight off his hooves. He also had lilypads on for about a month, he kept chewing them off and he did get sore skin around them. Only after they are completely sound off bute for 14 days should you introduce turn out.
With regards to feed i would rather feed as little as possible (only what is needed for meds) and feed up on well soaked hay instead. Your just feeding extra calories which is bad news for EMS. If you search posts on here there is tonnes of good advice!

 

[Beatrice5]

We have X rays hence I know he has rotation in both fronts.

 

[Justturnedfifty]

Hi there, I had the misfortune to experience a very unpleasant attack of laminitis with my pony earlier this year. He was very sorry for himself. We immediately changed his bedding to hemp. Box rest for 4 weeks with 2 sachets of bute for 2 weeks, as per vets instructions, followed by 2 weeks of one sachet per day. Alongside bute we fed additional laminitis magnesium supplement. We dropped his feed down to a small handful of Top Spec Antilam (expensive but good) with a handful of alfafa (Dengie with no added sugars) in one feed only to mix supplements with. I found a company that produces a natural orientated laminitis supplement called Freestep Superfix - please look it up because I believe it really helped our pony. We fed soaked hay on a pretty constant basis to stop him getting bored. After 4 weeks started to lead him out but literally for two minutes only. At this point I wished we had a small yard available for him to move around a little more, but instead we walked in hand four times a day (literally a few minutes each time). He had I think they were called Lillipads fitted in week one of his attack and he was visibly happier. These were expensive but again well worth it. By week 5 off bute and appeared sound. Week 6 was X rayed (all ok thank God) and vet approved walking further in hand, ie, round the arena and to start walk work on a soft surface. Week 7 if positively progressing gentle ridden work BUT NO turnout. He is still sound, very well in himself and competing regularly with success. He now has one hours turnout morning and night. Is still on a totally sugar free diet and hay but no longer soaked along with a small amount of haylage (supplied as part of our livery). You know your pony if he is happier out and wants to move around quietly let him. Cut all sugars from his feed. Soak his hay. Look up Freestep Superfix, talk to them on the phone I found them really helpful. Definitely fit the pads they visibly helped our chap. Sympathise with you - good luck!

 

[Rjd84]

The facebook group mentioned already has been a god send for me. My horse had severe laminitis, wouldnt get better until vet tested for cushings (PPID) and he only started to improve once he was on the prascend medication. see my thread here: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?627530-Founder-prognosis-vet-says-pts!

Thankfully now he is out all day, in at night, walking sound with no bute. still has heart bars and gel pad on his rotated fott for now, i will go barefoot eventually but hes happy and mobile with no signs of laminitis, which considering vet wanted to PTS im very happy with! He has soaked hay still, with a scoop of topspec anti lam and thats it - very strict strip grazing and weight managed like his life depends on it. Good luck, i strongly recommend you having your horses ACTH levels tested, bear in mind my horses levels were normal last year but this year rose significantly in a very short period of time which cause the severe laminitis, then the rotation and sinking of pedal bone - so just because a horse has tested within normal range previously, doesn't mean the levels have stayed that way! finding the cause of the lamintis is imperative for a successful recovery x

 

[Heelfirst]

For me it is very important that my clients recognise what sort of pain their horses is experiencing, as there is often no other way of us telling how or what progress is being made, especially with laminitics.
This might help explain what I mean

http://www.rockfoot.com/lameness.html

 

[Linn]

You have my sympathy! I went through this last winter when my retired pony with EMS got tangled in a fence in a freak accident and foundered he wouldn't stay in a stable, he was mistreated before he came to me and enclosed spaces have always been a no-no for him.
Turned out 27/7 on a tiny area with boots and frog supports on all day and night was okay for him. He did get thrush from his boots being on all the time, but that really was the lesser of 2 evils! Strong iodine sorted that out and Anyway he was on so much metacam that any lameness from the slight thrush wasn't a problem!

I would never suggest herbal treatment instead of Vetenary but if you want to get his blood supply to his feet to help healing Hawthorn really is good. Also, if his bone has moved significantly expect his tendon to be sore for a good long time yet, it took my lad a full year and more to get properly sound, because of the pressure put on his front tendons. All the best. X

 

[natmac84]

im not sure about devils claw but i do know that a lot of liquis sups have a high sugar/mollasis content

 

[Lorrie66]

I think we have hit a wall

He still has a digital pulse that is easily felt, he walks picking his way, he has lost weight ( ribs easily felt, hips / shoulders seen easily , Crest floppy and dissapearing) but he still finds turning in his bed uncomfortable.

We are nearly a month into the weighed soaked hay, box rest ( bar the odd mooch in his pea gravel corral) he is fed a handful of happy hoof molasses free, a small cup of speedibeet, a teaspoon Maldon sea salt, a tea spoon cinnamon powder, a small measure Equine America vits/mins/probiotics and a scoop of garlic and a measure of Devils claw. Just run out of mag ox 3 days ago and it is awaiting collection from the post office monday.

Why is he still walking like a sore pony? Do I boot him in his stable? Thrush under control thanks to Athletes foot powder but I am worried boots will rub and feet will sweat if left on all day / night.

My gut instinct is to boot him and let him wander around his pea gravel corral and I feel movement will stimulate healing. He has rotation but if he is supported by his pads and boots will the movement ease the congestion in his feet or does it risk making his rotation worse ? He has IR but think his diet is compatable with this ( please tell me if you can spot anything to the contrary )

There seem to be so many different approaches, some say strict box rest for a month, some say the quicker you get them moving the better ? I am feeling like piggy in the middle. Box rest doesnt seem to be working plus he makes a real mess in the box so I am pretty sure he isn't resting that much. I swear he is quieter when he is allowed the corral so he can stand and chat to the girls in the adjacent corral / paddock.

I am not seeking this advice to replace my vet just to find out what others have done and what has worked for them. I will continue to work closely with my vet and farrier but appreciate input from others who have been through this before.

Hi
Just reading this thread and thought I'd let you know my experience .....
Firstly, in case you have not seen this do look at http://www.talkaboutlaminitis.co.uk/
Along with my vet this has kept me sane all summer!

We had two go down within 4 weeks of each other this summer.
Basically, it is a long process to recovery. We had our grass tested and due to the weird weather ... really cold winter, very late spring the grass was lethal in sugars. Just like it is a bumper year for fruit this year.
Even on strip grazing they both got way too much calories and sugar from even a small paddock in just a few weeks
So anyway we've done this:-
Box rest - 24/7 for 2 months on a full bed to the door and frog supports.
The vet recommended eucalyptus oil to keep feet healthy and clean. Its worked a treat .
Diet - soaked hay plus a small handful of chaff, high fibre cubes - again a handful, plus Slimline for all the right vits/minerals/mag. I did have anti lam but it sent my mare a bit loopy and I don't like the fact the ingredients and quantities are not on the bag. we stopped and she is her normal calm self again.

After 2 months & NO pulses we started 10 mins of exercise a day ( lunging only at walk then trot)- but still NO grass for another month
After 3 months increase in exercise by 5 mins a day - intro to grass at 10 mins a day and increase by 5 mins per week
Grass is a small paddock and as my vet advised as smooth as a snooker table and no longer!
We have bought sheep to eat the grass as the first line of defense and then the horses go in second.
We are also re-seeding with a medieval meadow grass mix more akin to natural meadows rather than super rich rye which is what we inherited.

We are now 4 months on - no pulses for 2 months now - i still check daily!
They are out 1 hour a day and this is increased by 5 mins each week but we can go a bit faster when the grass really slows down but again this autumn has been dangerous as it is still growing!
We are now riding 15 mins a day too ( it was fab to tack up again!) - just at walk only and will increase by 5 mins a week until we get to 30 mins and then we can introduce trot.
Both are sound . The slight rotation for one horse in one hoof as completely disappeared the vet was chuffed at his work!
Thanks to our vet and farrier( a godsend) they would attend together to ensure the right course of action
The watch word I have found is TIME. Do everything really slowly. it is really tough but perseverance is key.
We tried to do things on the yard as much as poss to give them something to look at and put radio 4 on for education! - and while I hate the fact that we had 2 go down the silver lining was they were together!

If you still have pulses then I would say keep to a strict diet and stop all movement until they have gone- we didn't even move them to muck out initially we just worked around them. We waited for the pulse to go and then introduce change one thing at a time very slowly i.e. either some movement first and stay of grass until things seem really stable. We had one that we could feel pulses again so we went back a step for a week until this disappeared then tried again.
Both ours look fabulous now and both fingers crossed really sound and hoof growth is healthy. But I've got all winter now to keep increasing exercise and grass to get them slowly back to a normal regime.
I am not clipping or rugging this year either unless they show they are cold.
Next spring I hope the sheep and re-seeding will stand us in good stead and of course lots of strip grazing! not everyone can perhaps get sheep or re-seed but small sections of strip grazing and/or no grass turnout are the big things to do.
I do hope you start to turn the corner , but also hope you find you are not alone as this year has been a nightmare for many. The lessons for me are to be more natural with grass,and weight loss over winter is to be recommended but seems to go against what we all want for our friends.

 

[Beatrice5]

Thank you Lorrie that is really helpful.

I have been struggling to find actual action plans for how to know when and what he can do. The little sod was feeling rather grand today and nipped through the electric fence when I was trying to negotiate the muck filled barrow through and went for a hand stand lap of honor around the field - I was cursing and thinking I needed my hat to catch him he was like a rocket and lashing out like a rodeo horse......No grass was consumed but he was feeling well and sound as a bell in his boots and pads...... Needless to say he was quickly and quietly retrieved and returned to his corral - his pulses are back tonight unsuprisingly!!!

I will have to skip out and keep the barrow on the outside of his corral now as I cant risk that happening again......

Changing my hay supply and the Forage Plus seem to be making a difference he is getting perkier by the day and even without his boots he is finding the pea gravel easier and easier to walk about on.