Lammi - again.. peoples views

bensababy

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Hello, after seeing a few posts up regarding Lammi i feel the need to have a debate/opinion on this.
Alot of comments i have seen have been a case of - oh well if it happens it happens, i refuse to muzzle my horse its cruel etc
Or my horse/pony is fat and still out on lush grass..but its ok because if he gets Lammi oh well hes had it before.
Sorry to rant but its a topic that hits a raw nerve with me.
What are peoples opinions on prevention of Lammi and how would you approach it?
 

jacks_mum

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Our little one wears a muzzle during the day every day through the summer and we allow her to have 2 nights a week out with out it. I monitor her every day through the summer and if she's getting overly cresty (she always has a small crest, I go on how hard or floppy it as per my vets instructions) she will stay in. Through the summer she has a reduced amount of hay and it is soaked. In my book prevention is better than cure every time. I try to ensure neither of mine get porky - not too easy with a mini shettie.
 

kerilli

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i agree with you, it makes me mad, it is so often preventable. the first time can come out of the blue (although not if it's a fat cresty pony in knee-high cow grass!), but after that, it should be preventable through good management.
in a starvation paddock from 8am to afternoon/evening, then out overnight in big field with grass (stemmy, not lush), is how i'm managing my mare who's had it once. i am keeping her deliberately light, she has been on a diet ever since she had it last summer.
i tried her in a muzzle but it made her totally miserable, even more miserable than solitary confinement in starvation paddock for 8-10 hours a day.
yes, i'd much rather she could be out in the big field all the time with the others, but it's just not worth the risk.
 

Nudibranch

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I always get comments for muzzling mine and it really annoys me. Once had a neighbour at the old place who insisted on throwing hay, feed, etc into the starvation paddock. She reckoned she'd had her vet take a look and the vet had said they shouldn't be on a diet (they were in perfect summer condition).... I ended up writing to her, advising she phone MY vet if she has a problem, oh and any veterinary bills for laminitis resulting from her feeding them would be sent to her. Not nice but it had to be done. WHY dont people realise how serious this illness is???
 

Jane_Lou

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A friend had a young welsh pony at a local DIY yard, she kept him, at the advise of the vet, in a small fenced off paddock in her field. He had room for a good gallop and was given soaked hay at night. The "helpful" yard owner was not impressed and complained constantly about the size of the area and lack of grass in it. My friend was really frustrated as despite the correct management the pony was getting really fat.
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I was off work one day and hacked down past the yard to find the pony in the whole of the field. When challenged the YO admitted that after my friend had left in the morning she would let the pony into the whole field, shutting him back into the strip before my friend got back in the evening.....
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The ignorance was amazing, YO really thought she was doing the right thing for the pony - my friend moved to my yard that night!
 

Horseyscot

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Hi, my sheltie is out during day but always with a muzzle on, its one of the shires one which seems to suit her ok, and doesn't rub. she can 'graze' and drink through the small hole. She is in over night and is fed soaked hay and spillers happy hoof. I have the added 'problem' of being married to a dairy farmer who obviously wants good grass for milk production. hes not allowed near the horses field though!! my cob is overweight even against my best efforts but he is regularly ridden and i think this is important, i am convinced that regular exercise helps keep laminitus at bay.
 

Boodle

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Two of mine are laminitic and are both on strict regimes to prevent them getting it again.

My pet hate is people who do not act before it's too late.
 

Flame_

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IME most people with laminitics live, sleep and breathe laminitis. You can only do so much to prevent it short of running your entire life around the animals. You must have a straightforward pony that as long as it doesn't get fat its fine. IT IS NOT ALWAYS THAT SIMPLE. It's people with this kind of attitude that made me feel wracked with guilt that a pony I look after kept having attacks. The pony turned out to have cushings even though he's quite young, and some have other under-lying factors like EMS. Judging people whose horses are ill doesn't help anyone. Of course in some cases laminitis is entirely caused by bad management but it is foolish to assume this is always the case, even the top vets don't fully understand all the reasons behind this complex illness.
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Eaglestone

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My whole life revolves round my horse with Cushings who is at risk of Laminitis. I spent alot of time this evening sorting him out a billiard sized patch so that he can have a little extra bit of grass tomorrow, without pushing it too far
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My friend has two minature Shetlands out on acres of lush grass and just does not get it, even though I keep muting to her about the risks .... last year one had a bout of it and I tried to tell her as I have never felt a bounding DP as I did on him ..... he survived as he is little, but still very much at risk
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.... and don't get me started on the abbreviation of Laminitis, as if it is a cute thing to have
shocked.gif
 

Maisy

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the thing is, from my pov, as an owner of a pony who has never had it, there doesnt seem to be any reason for it.

My pony wears a muzzle (she did last year and has it back on now), but afaik, the muzzle only cuts down what they are eating by half. Also, the grass they can eat is the short, powerful stuff, as that is all that can get through the holes.

I am still not convinced that my pony needs to wear her muzzle currently, as she is out on long, but stalky grass which hasnt been fertilized in at least 10 years. But she has her muzzle on because I dont want to be negligent.

Other ponies can look at grass the wrong way and be crippled with laminitis....it seems to me a bit like the person who smokes 40 a day that dies way after someone who has never smoked.....
 

kerilli

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agreed, Maisy, it is not a straightforward illness at all. some grossly fat horses and ponies don't get it at all. some normal-looking ones (i.e. not fat) get it post-foaling, post-operations etc, etc. (i'm no expert on it, have probably missed out lots of other reasons.)
but what makes me mad is the people who have a horse/pony who's had it before, and think it's fine to let it get gross and stick it out in a big field with tons of grass because "it's happier there."
well, i'd be happier eating nothing but chips and chocolate for the rest of my life, doesn't mean it would be good for me though!
 

flyingfeet

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On a random tangent - what about us with 16hh sport horses, which were competition fit up until the steriod jab that set off laminitis.

I didn't even consider laminitis, and feed was not the cause in this case. So what about those with steroid, stress or other induced laminitis?

Like any condition you can make broad sweeping statments, but sterotyping never helped anyone!!
 

pottamus

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My lad got a real minor twinge of it for the first time ever last year. I was totally ashamed of myself for letting it get to that stage at all. So whilst I will never see him short of something to eat and keep him happy, he is on a strict routine to prevent it EVER happening again. He has been on an eaten down paddock of two tennis court size area since April and will stay on that until October, even though the rest of the field is about 2 acres. People often ask why I don't let him have more and that it is a waste of grass etc but I do not care so long as he does not get laminitis agin. I get up at 5am to ride him at 5.30am round the block for half an hour every day in the week before work to keep the weight down. He is fed ad lib hay to keep him happy and weigh taped religiously every week.
I will never forgive myself or feel comfortable with the fack that he got a twinge of laminitis, I have a debt and duty of care to him to prevent it happening again...no matter how hard it is for me to keep to the routine. That is how I feel about it!
 

TGM

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What really annoys me is people who let their ponies get laminitis time and time again, down to pure laziness. They might make the excuse that the pony doesn't like having a muzzle on, or doesn't like being brought into the stable for a few hours, or doesn't like being in a starvation paddock, but the truth of it is that all these methods mean more work, and they'd rather the pony was out in a big field 24/7 because it is less work for them!

One person I know drives me mad because her pony gets laminitis every year, but she still leaves it out in a huge field, and moans about the mucking out when she has to bring it in because it is crippled.
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Our old pony was a Cushingoid laminitic and eventually I found the only way to manage her was to stable her for most of the day, with two hours turnout in the morning and another couple of hours later in the day.
 

TGM

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[ QUOTE ]
On a random tangent - what about us with 16hh sport horses, which were competition fit up until the steriod jab that set off laminitis.

I didn't even consider laminitis, and feed was not the cause in this case. So what about those with steroid, stress or other induced laminitis?

Like any condition you can make broad sweeping statments, but sterotyping never helped anyone!!

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think the OP was saying that anyone whose horse got laminitis was negligent.

If you read her post she was referring to those cases where horses had a previous history of laminitis, but the owners still refused to make any changes to the horse's management to stop the situation happening again.
 

bensababy

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I am fully aware you cannot run your life around it, but you would do everything you could to ensure you are doing your best for your horse.
If you read my post i was talking about people who have a blase attitude towards it which i find hard to understand. And in this case i am talking about bad management, i know there are underlying cases - been there done that got the tshirt. I am aware how difficult it is. But this wasnt the cases i am talking about.
 

bensababy

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sorry - please read my post again. as i have said again above i am not talking about that - it was not a broad sweeping statement to make i am going by posts i have read regarding attitudes towards it so i am hardly stereotyping people.
I am asking why people seem to have a blase attitude towards such a cruel disease.
crazy.gif
 

flyingfeet

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Ah I see your point - following my laminitis I will totally change my horses management to prevent this happening. However I want a horse fit for competitions, so I will do practically anything to keep him ship shape.

Guess most of the over feeding cases are people that cannot be bothered to muck out or poo pick! With muzzles there is no excuse for fat ponies
 

flyingfeet

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Yep - he has sweet itch, which I usually manage really well. However from that batch of hot weather and wet the midges went to town on his sheath (only part of him not covered up) which was very swollen and looked sore.

I was so keen to compete I took him to the vet, they jabbed him and 5 days later he is hopping lame. Corticoid steroid and laminitis have a well known link.

Technically its all my fault, as I should not have taken him to the vet, his sheath would have gone down by itself.
 

bensababy

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you done the right thing by taking him to the vet. Mine gets attacked by midges too and it worries me because the symptoms he had before Lammi was swollen sheath.
I now cover his sheath in sudocream before he goes out and he never gets bitten and sheath does not swell up.
 

flyingfeet

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His sheath was ritually covered in sudocrem and stop itch morning and night, I'd swapped to metanium which is thicker and harder to bite through (but more expensive).

As a final resort I had used dermobion and slathered than on, but his sheath was swollen for 5 days and I wanted to compete, which was the kiss of death!

If you have this problem again, I've been advised that human water tablets work better than anything to bring the swelling down.
 

bensababy

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wow your midgies must be super tough where you are.
Sounds like you are really going through it at the moment with your boy. Hope he gets better soon.
 

Boodle

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On the same line as others, neither of mine got laminitis due to being particularily over weight or on rich grass.
Boo got it in February, due to a heavy frost which released fructins in the grass and caused it. Also, it has been considered that this was made worse by them bombing about the field and her getting concussion within her feet due to the hard ground.
But obviously now she has had it once, anything can set it off, hence the careful management of her grazing.

As for the Shetland, he got it due to compensation of his weight. He was overweight before we had him, but he had UFP and it was very severe. He used to bear most of his weight on his fore legs as his hinds would continously lock straight out. He got it while standing in a sheep pen after getting savaged by his field mates for being unable to get away due to his UFP. We got him laminitic, yet very underweight, with no water, raw patches due to severe sweet itch and weeping abcesses all over his body.
We managed to get rid of the laminitis within 2 weeks, through treatment of his UFP. Should we not have taken him, he would have died.
That laminitis was unexpected by his owners and they didn't realise he had it. They were good people, just unaware of what they were doing to this little man. Condemning people is not the answer, IMO, but helping them and advising them for the benefit of the horse or pony involved can and, in my little shetlands case, has proved successful.
 

bensababy

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Mine never got it thorugh being fat either. He got it through some idiot chcuking grass cuttings over hedge and the piglet he is - ate them. Up until then i had never had a problem. But like you now i know hes prone to it i take precautions with a muzzle and a good diet and plenty of exercise.
 

Tiggy1

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Mine got lami this year despite me doing everything to avoid it so it is not totally unavoidable.
She was muzzled, in work and not over weight.
Even the vet was suprised - no crest etc so don't give people a hard time who's ponies go down with it a second time.
I was devastated when mine went down again this year.
 

TGM

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[ QUOTE ]
Mine got lami this year despite me doing everything to avoid it so it is not totally unavoidable.
She was muzzled, in work and not over weight.
Even the vet was suprised - no crest etc so don't give people a hard time who's ponies go down with it a second time.
I was devastated when mine went down again this year.

[/ QUOTE ] You had obviously made sensible management changes to try and prevent a reoccurrance. If you read the first post carefully, you will see that the OP was actually referring to owners who don't make management changes, even though they know the animal to be overweight or laminitis-prone.

Having had a bad laminitic in the past, I know that sometimes they can get it even on a restricted diet and when at a correct weight. Sorry to hear about your horse, has she been tested for EMS or Cushings?
 

bensababy

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PLease please read my post again. I seem to be being had a go at when people are not reading my posts properly.
I am not giving people a hard time for a 2nd bout - i would be a bit of a hipocrite (sp?) i am talking about those who dont seem to give a shi* about it.
 

tinker512

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In the past couple of years I have known 4 horses with Laminitis.Either I looked after them or rode them, so obviously the decision making and control goes to the owner then.

Its interesting. The first pony was a exmoor pony. I spotted the laminitis and laerted the owner, whos treatment was stand on concrete with a bit of treatment to the hooves from her son (farrier) with little to eat. Yet this woman claims she has had horses for years, shown, judges and bred and of course know best. My suggestion of a deep bed and box-rested, muzzling in future and the VET was ignored, nothing I could do. Now said pony is only pony left, lives out 24/7 on a starvation paddock with no toher feed, and this winter i know he will be dead.

The other 3 ponies got veterinary attention, hooves cut back, support, box rest, proper nutrition and muzzling when need to be. One of the owners has experience, and BHS up to stage 3 I think. The other owners were novicey, but listened to the vet. Unfortunatly one of these ponies did die after such a strict regime to help him

It just goes to show that experience is often stupidity, whereas people normally think novices are the ones to get it wrong.

People think there are so many different ways, but in the end it is the same, prevention is better then a cure, the horse needs a vets opinion, the horse should be box rested and diet looked at, and I don't care how cruel people think it is, the horse should be bloody well muzzled, not half as cruel as letting the poor horse die
 
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