Last year's hay for laminitic?

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oldhat

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Hi peeps, my haffy boy has been stabled for a week now with laminitis, he's also tested positive for Cushings. I have a good supply of last year's hay and had been just steaming it for him and my other also cushingoid mare :( thinking that it would have lost most of its nutritional goodness. However, after reading probably too much online I am now thinking I should soak it rather than steam it. I soak their day hay while in but steam the nighttime stuff. Poor lad seemed to be doing ok but took him off the painkillers today and walked him out to assess him but he came back sore again. Now hate myself for moving him at all! He is now coughing as he also has recurrent COPD so on ventilpulmin too! Do you reckon the old steamed hay will still be too high in sugars?
 
I have read that old hay has no less sugar in it than new hay because carbohydrates don't disappear with age. I would soak it for a laminitic.
 
Old hay has no less sugar or starch in it than new hay. You can soak hay but you will only reduce sugars not starch and starch is an issue for laminitics. Soaking for an hour is possibly the best. Soak it longer and you will vastly increase the iron - excessive iron which all UK forage and hay has will knock out any small amount of copper and zinc that either exists in the forage or anything you feed.

Soaking for longer won't reduce the sugar a lot and will make it rank and unpalatable and high in iron.

Make sure you change the water you soak the hay in each time and rinse it off - if you don't rinse it there isn't much point in soaking it because the sugar will still be there.

The only way you can be sure of what sugar and starch is in hay soaked or unsoaked is to have it tested. Yes, its expensive, and a wet chemistry test is the only way. However, better than having your horse put down with lami which is hugely painful and a full blown episode can be the end of the road - can't really imagine why anyone would guess about sugar and starch levels for a lammi horse.

Edited to add steaming will make it more palatable but certainly won't reduce sugars or starches. I would suggest you research a lot about laminitic horses - it really can be the end of the road if you get it wrong.
 
I only ever feed year old hay, and it is soaked, as much for the dust as for the sugars. Never had a horse go down with laminitis, but have rehabbed a couple for clients who were too soft to restrict their horses to the small amounts that were prescribed. Steaming will make the hay palatable and bind dust and mould spores, but won't have any affect on the sugar content.
 
Soaking for longer ...... will make it rank and unpalatable
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No it won't.

I know loads of people who do it and I do it with haylage. The horses eat it happily.
 
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I soak in a big trug for 8+ hours. I've checked with many vets and they've all told me that if you want to minimise sugar levels then that's the way forward. There's a study floating around somewhere showing that 12 hours tends to get the NSC level down to 4%. It does increase bacteria levels so you could pop a kettle over it - but I soak up by my field so tend to throw a bucket of clean water over before serving up.

It's definitely not unpalatable!

A low cal balancer is worthwhile because you do soak out some vits and minerals too. Forage plus do one for laminitis, which you could mix with a bit of chaff and some salt. Hope your horse starts to feel better soon. We had to give my fat one steroids last week so I'm on lami watch now.
 
sjp1 said:
Old hay has no less sugar or starch in it than new hay. You can soak hay but you will only reduce sugars not starch and starch is an issue for laminitics. Soaking for an hour is possibly the best. Soak it longer and you will vastly increase the iron - excessive iron which all UK forage and hay has will knock out any small amount of copper and zinc that either exists in the forage or anything you feed.

Soaking for longer won't reduce the sugar a lot and will make it rank and unpalatable and high in iron.

Make sure you change the water you soak the hay in each time and rinse it off - if you don't rinse it there isn't much point in soaking it because the sugar will still be there.

The only way you can be sure of what sugar and starch is in hay soaked or unsoaked is to have it tested. Yes, its expensive, and a wet chemistry test is the only way. However, better than having your horse put down with lami which is hugely painful and a full blown episode can be the end of the road - can't really imagine why anyone would guess about sugar and starch levels for a lammi horse.

Edited to add steaming will make it more palatable but certainly won't reduce sugars or starches. I would suggest you research a lot about laminitic horses - it really can be the end of the road if you get it wrong.
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Or not... For most of the year I soak hay for 12 hours. Only when temperature allow for fast bacterial growth or fermentation do I reduce to soaking for an hour. It certainly doesn't reduce the palatability - though it does reduce the nutritional value and therefore should be fed with a reciprocal forge balancer.

The iron is leached out into the water, and therefore it is important that soaked hay be rinsed until it runs clear, and that the effluent be disposed on in a place where it is not accessible to animals as drinking water.
 
Casey76 said:
Or not... For most of the year I soak hay for 12 hours. Only when temperature allow for fast bacterial growth or fermentation do I reduce to soaking for an hour. It certainly doesn't reduce the palatability - though it does reduce the nutritional value and therefore should be fed with a reciprocal forge balancer.

The iron is leached out into the water, and therefore it is important that soaked hay be rinsed until it runs clear, and that the effluent be disposed on in a place where it is not accessible to animals as drinking water.
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This ^^^^
 
The main thing that degrades in old hay is the vitamins. If you are regularly feeding old hay you should really supplement whatever vits they need.
There is a study which showed that 20 minutes is enough to get rid of most of the water soluble carbohydrates, so long as you rinse well. I used to put mine to soak while I did chores, take it out and rinse it and then leave it to dry until the next feed is due, then feed it and do the next lot
 
JillA said:
The main thing that degrades in old hay is the vitamins. If you are regularly feeding old hay you should really supplement whatever vits they need.
There is a study which showed that 20 minutes is enough to get rid of most of the water soluble carbohydrates, so long as you rinse well. I used to put mine to soak while I did chores, take it out and rinse it and then leave it to dry until the next feed is due, then feed it and do the next lot
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I think I read this study recently. I was soaking for 12 hours or over night. It was pretty yuck when I drained it the piggy ponies ate it readily but my horses wouldn't eat it if offered so I was relieved to read this report and now only soak for 20 minutes or so.
 
Thanks, so I have been soaking the hay for minimum 20 mins and then rinsing and double netting it and so far so good. Need to get a supplement, either forage plus or formula4feet, mu farrier is coming today again to maybe trim him but I am worried that if the vet thinks it doesn't warrant xrays, how will he know how much to take off? If I do not trim, and he has small changes, do these ever correct to the point of comfort for the horse or is it imperative to the healing of the feet? I have owned horses for 30 yrs and did have a friend with a pony who got it a long time ago, back then they starved them and then put them down (truly dreadul) but now things are so different, perhaps why I may come across as being naive. I just don't want to make any mistakes at this vital point. Vet said to just keep him in on the diet and perhaps a wee trim and he said 'I am sure he'll be out again in the field before too long'. I am not so sure any advice? Thank you
 
It's all on here http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ have a read. But you will see that the trim very much depends on what is going on inside - does your vet even have a portable xray? If not that might be the reason he is prevaricating. If he does, maybe you could insist, you are after all the customer, if you want to (as he might see it) waste your money that is up to you.
 
Yes they do have a portable one and I did ask him but he maintained that shady's lami is not so very bad, getting farrier back anyway today, but won't let him do much without xrays. Had a quote of £350 from the vet to come out to do four xrays of just the front feet which to me sounds excessive, was considering finding another vet. Horse is 19 and not insured other than with bhs. Did read the entire lami site and others too but it is really hard to work out even if this is lami, I am assuming the vet is correct but lad has shown NO signs of rocking on his heels, leaning against walls or any rings or heat on feet or even a groove along the top so a bit worried about cutting away too much. He just became very lame and refused to even walk. A small pulse but not excessive. If there are only minor changes in the hoof is it possible that the horse will get better without trimming etc? I realise once changes have happened it is unlikely he will just come sound again. Was also told by other people whose horses have had lami that xrays are a waste of money as they rarely show anything of much help. Vet said the lami was brought on because of the undiagnosed Cushings and once we have that controlled he should get over it but that could take weeks. Never been this confused over the right thing to do for a horse!
 
I've just checked my vet bill from 2 years ago - 2 xray plates taken were £69, an extra one was £16.50, plus of course the cost of the visit. The only harm they can do is to your bank balance, but £350 is rather a lot IMHO.
Maybe your farrier will advise you? If there is significant rotation or sinkage and the soles aren't hugely thick he might be able to feel through the soles. Trimming is advisable but if he isn't classically laminitic you might find supporting pads and bedding will get him back on the right track - the support from underneath is the most important thing. I'd see what your farrier says, as a back up to yours and the vets prognosis.
Mine was due to Cushings too, but the Prascend didn't stop him getting footy when there was a flush of grass in spring, I still have to keep him on a low sugar diet.
 
Thanks Jill, yes I think I can find a cheaper vet, it's not so much the cost as to whether it's worth doing. My other mare already has cushings and is on one pill a day, I know that even if controlled they are more likely to get it and my mare also has fat pads which are almost impossible to get rid of but I ride her to keep her fit. I had to stop riding Shady as I got cancer and he was too wide after my surgery to feel I could sit correctly any more so I partly blame it on me for stopping exercising the lad, but even so he wasn't that fat. I agree that thick shavings is good for the support but it seems that it could take a long ling while for him to come sound again. Thanks for at least giving me a glimmer of hope though!
 
I feed my fatties haylage now. I've spent years soaking hay and all the mess and backaches that go with it. No more....they get haylage and I have no more problems despite a couple of them having had lami before.
The best way to be really sure is have to whatever you use tested....hay or haylage....then you'll know for sure
 
Are you medicating for Cushings? If so it works much more quickly than 'weeks', especially if you are soaking hay. I think if I had one with dust allergy I'd soak anyway, rather than steam.

If you are happy that feet aren't excessively long then you might not need X-rays just yet. Please don't assume that any changes mean he won't come sound agai , that's not true and the majority do.

One last point, he hasn't got laminitis because he's fat or not managed properly, he's got In because he has Cushings and would have got it no matter what you did, so don't beat yourself up about it.
 
Thanks meleeka et al! Yes, farrier has now been and said he thought he had already lost some weight since he last saw him just over a week ago, he trimmed his feet back at the heels and toes so most weight is on the frog and said he thought he looked pretty chirpy and hopefully we may even get away without xrays. He said to leave him in another week and then if he is still sore, perhaps then to get xrays. In the meantime I will be checking to see how much other vets round here charge for them. I feel a lot happier since farrier's been, soooo glad I changed him only recently, at last a farrier who actually gets back to you! It's a miracle!! Yes, I will stop beating myself up as you are quite right, it IS the cushings and I am very glad to hear that you reckon the meds kick in pretty fast, I read somewhere it could be four to six weeks, he's been on them for a week now after his inital test and will be retested in a month. My mare was transformed with prascend from an unridable antsy cow back to her sweet nature but with him, there was no sign until he came down with the lami. HP I still wouldn't dare feed haylage to either of mine but glad it works for you! I must admit I loved steaming their hay (in my homemade wheelie bin steamer!) and they loved eating it, soaked hay is just not as tasty but they're eating it! Phew! At least also it means no coughing. What a nightmare laminitis is, never thought mine would get it, I think I will have to let my fields just grow and keep it for winter once its lost its goodness, hopefully it will be useable for them then. Thanks for all the advice, I feel a lot happier now :D
 
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