Late castration to improve conformation

D

Dry Rot

Well-Known Member
Joined
31 May 2010
Messages
5,847
Location
Scotland
Visit site
I'd heard that late castration could improve conformation and having a quiet stallion who could nanny a couple of colts I decided to run them on and try it.

Here are before and after pictures. What do you think? The first soon after weaning, then at one year old, and finally today as a 2yo, born in June. Incidentally, both colts have wonderful temperaments and never nip or kick

scruff1_zpsc18b6add.jpg

scruff2_zps7150f5cc.jpg

blob8_zpse57de596.jpg
 
???????????????????????????

Eh i think they all change as they grow, and late castration will not effect that. Early castration will if anything.
 
Castration does affect conformation as it lowers testosterone and other hormones which affect growth of both muscle and bone. In my humble opinion far too many horses are castrated too early, leaving it til the colt is between two and three years ( depending on temperament if they are a bolshy sort then I wouldn't hesitate to remove the testes before the teen hormones really kick in) is far better for development than doing it at a year or less. Of course the problem is most people don't have the time/knowledge or facilities to let them keep their knackers longer and even worse breeding for temperament ( never mind conformation) seems to be out of fashion. I left my boy until he was three because he stayed calm and easy to handle until, at that age he became interested in the mares next door and although still easy to do was easily distracted, so I decided he had had them long enough and it was time to get them off before he started to realise what his body was telling him to do!
 
We always try to run ours on until at lest 4 years old. It's not always possible depending on where the pony is currently living. The youngest we gelded one at was 2yo when he started to lock his stifle and we discovered it was an inherited trait so that was the end of our next intended stud stallion!

I do find that they fill out and mature much better and quicker when left entire although I wouldn't leave one longer than 6yo as you open yourself up to more complications during the castration.
 
kez81 said:
Castration does affect conformation as it lowers testosterone and other hormones which affect growth of both muscle and bone.
Click to expand...

Illusion100 said:
It is impossible to prove that testosterone levels affects growth plate closure, fact.
Click to expand...

Actually there have been a couple of studies done to prove that testosterone levels don't affect growth plate closures at all. These are not particularly recent studies either; they've been around a while but sadly not as long as rural myths.
 
Illusion100 said:
Genetics determines height and conformation, not castration.

It is impossible to prove that testosterone levels affects growth plate closure, fact.
Click to expand...

Yes genetics determine height and conformation but hormones can drastically change the way the body develops, particularly bones and muscles. There are numerous studies in both animals and humans which prove this. As for affecting growth plates, one if my favourite examples of this is the " castrato". Boys were castrated before pubity to maintain their singing voice and one of the side effects was in their muscle and bone development. The growth plates didn't fuse at a normal rate and some bones grew longer and thinner than normal ( particularly the ribs and finger bones) the muscles were elongated and not as strong. This has all been proven through examination of remains by several universities. And no I am not an expert on genetics or hormones but I do have a science back ground and a close friend with an unhealthy obsession with human male castration in history!
 
Oh and I am not saying that castrating later will necessarily improve a horse either, at the end if the day if the horse has crap genetics, poor diet or other hormone imbalance then with or without his knackers nothing is going to vastly improve conformation, nearly that castration CAN potentially have some effect be it negative or positive ( yes both are possible), just that a lot of people seem to be castrating earlier and earlier these days when in some cases they really don't need to.
 
kez81 said:
Yes genetics determine height and conformation but hormones can drastically change the way the body develops, particularly bones and muscles. There are numerous studies in both animals and humans which prove this. As for affecting growth plates, one if my favourite examples of this is the " castrato". Boys were castrated before pubity to maintain their singing voice and one of the side effects was in their muscle and bone development. The growth plates didn't fuse at a normal rate and some bones grew longer and thinner than normal ( particularly the ribs and finger bones) the muscles were elongated and not as strong. This has all been proven through examination of remains by several universities. And no I am not an expert on genetics or hormones but I do have a science back ground and a close friend with an unhealthy obsession with human male castration in history!
Click to expand...

Yes, testosterone influences bone density and muscle mass, as does diet, exercise and environment but it is not fact that it holds influence on genetic factors.
 
Spring Feather said:
Actually there have been a couple of studies done to prove that testosterone levels don't affect growth plate closures at all. These are not particularly recent studies either; they've been around a while but sadly not as long as rural myths.
Click to expand...

The studies may have indicated these findings but it is impossible to prove the role testosterone has on growth plate closure. If the subjects of the studies were clones with the same diet, exercise, environment, age etc, then perhaps it could be considered fact.
 
The angle the last photo was taken at is not quite right to show the larger crest on that colt. His half brother was lighter in build and is definitely improved by having a heavier neck and more masculine conformation -- but beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I'm glad we left them both until two. The stallion keeps them both in order and they still do the foal mouthing thing when they approach him. The colt in the picture is particularly sweet natured.

Here's another of the same pony earlier this year. Remember, he is a Highland, not one of those emaciated TB types!:D

DSC_0110a_zps487b5604.jpg
 
Illusion100 said:
Yes, testosterone influences bone density and muscle mass, as does diet, exercise and environment but it is not fact that it holds influence on genetic factors.
Click to expand...

I didn't say it affects genetics, but as conformation is defined as the overall physical appearance or shape of an animal, and hormones can affect the way bone and muscle develop in length, density or even shape, then it stands to reason that conformation could be altered to some degree by castration just as it could be altered by administering growth hormones.
 
Illusion100 said:
I'm confused.....!
Click to expand...

I think what they are saying is..

that conformation ie, overall end product, such as a well portioned horse will come from damn/SIRE Like a nice short backed horse with a well set neck, not gelding wont effect this... but

how it can make a difference is more to a horses muscle tone/growth due to the levels of hormones.
 
Dry Rot said:
The angle the last photo was taken at is not quite right to show the larger crest on that colt. His half brother was lighter in build and is definitely improved by having a heavier neck and more masculine conformation -- but beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I'm glad we left them both until two. The stallion keeps them both in order and they still do the foal mouthing thing when they approach him. The colt in the picture is particularly sweet natured.

Here's another of the same pony earlier this year. Remember, he is a Highland, not one of those emaciated TB types!:D

DSC_0110a_zps487b5604.jpg
Click to expand...

The thing is as after he is gelded the crest and muscle bulk will go as the testosterone leaves his system. I see it time and time again at work. Horse goes out for a spell to be gelded, returns a couple months later and is unrecognisable! The dark stallion sheen to their coat is gone, the bulky shoulders and crest neck are gone and what's left behind is what the horse would have been if it had of been gelded as a yearling!

His conformation hasn't improved.... Its just hidden under a hormone fuelled veil. I see the before/after of about 100 colts/stallions gelded (2-5 yrs when gelded) a year!
 
Last edited:
kez81 said:
I didn't say it affects genetics, but as conformation is defined as the overall physical appearance or shape of an animal, and hormones can affect the way bone and muscle develop in length, density or even shape, then it stands to reason that conformation could be altered to some degree by castration just as it could be altered by administering growth hormones.
Click to expand...

Growth hormone is a stress hormone whereas as testosterone is a steroid hormone/sex hormone. Castration of a weanling does not prevent it from growing. Decrease the ability to produce growth hormone and there is a problem.

A poorly muscled horse has the bone conformation as it would if it were well muscled. The muscle mass creates a different shape but the 'structure' the muscle covers remains the same.

I'm not saying sex hormones don't play a role in growth, just that it is very difficult to quantify in comparison to genetic influence.
 
Last edited:
fawaz said:
The thing is as after he is gelded the crest and muscle bulk will go as the testosterone leaves his system. I see it time and time again at work. Horse goes out for a spell to be gelded, returns a couple months later and is unrecognisable! The dark stallion sheen to their coat is gone, the bulky shoulders and crest neck are gone and what's left behind is what the horse would have been if it had of been gelded as a yearling!

His conformation hasn't improved.... Its just hidden under a hormone fuelled veil. I see the before/after of about 100 colts/stallions gelded (2-5 yrs when gelded) a year!
Click to expand...

yes but it can all be built up with a "false" look. by feeding and exercise so it doesn't have to be lost.

its a bit like show horses isn't it really .. a million truths hidden under fat..
 
jhoward said:
I think what they are saying is..

that conformation ie, overall end product, such as a well portioned horse will come from damn/SIRE Like a nice short backed horse with a well set neck, not gelding wont effect this... but

how it can make a difference is more to a horses muscle tone/growth due to the levels of hormones.
Click to expand...

This. It won't improve conformation but will improve topline.
 
blitznbobs said:
It is impossible and unscientific to say you can prove a negative..
Click to expand...

Depends on what your scientific philosophy is. If you're a falsificationist, then theories can only be proved false, not proved true. If you are a verificationist, then yeah, you are left with the problem of induction in negatives, as you cannot test ALL scenarios and therefore have to accept relative probability based on induction like the logical inductionists.

However all of them are functioning trains of scientific philosophy (and I haven't even gone into things like entity realism where we don't even strictly believe in theories, just entities...) so not 'unscientific', just dependent on your train of scientific philosophy. But as logical inductionism is the most common practically accepted philosophy these days, 'proving' a negative isn't really an issue in terms of relative truth...

(Yes, I am a philosophy of science geek ;) )
 
Illusion100 said:
The studies may have indicated these findings but it is impossible to prove the role testosterone has on growth plate closure. If the subjects of the studies were clones with the same diet, exercise, environment, age etc, then perhaps it could be considered fact.
Click to expand...
Can you please explain why it couldn't be shown statistically?
 
Dry Rot said:
DSC_0110a_zps487b5604.jpg
Click to expand...

Looking at this pony's conformation, he is back at the knee. I don't see how gelding him early, or leaving him till later could make him more or less back at the knee.

Having a crest doesn't improve the conformation IMO, it's just muscle. It's the skeleton and the angle of the joints that is pertinent. We've all seen horses which are incorrectly trained, totally transformed with correct care and training to build up the topline, but the one thing that you can't change is the skeleton.
 
Farriers can improve wonky legs on youngsters with good trimming etc.. but that is independent to castration. I'm not convinced that leaving a colt entire alone can straighten legs.
 
Faracat said:
Looking at this pony's conformation, he is back at the knee. I don't see how gelding him early, or leaving him till later could make him more or less back at the knee.

Having a crest doesn't improve the conformation IMO, it's just muscle. It's the skeleton and the angle of the joints that is pertinent. We've all seen horses which are incorrectly trained, totally transformed with correct care and training to build up the topline, but the one thing that you can't change is the skeleton.
Click to expand...

And nothing is going to change his shoulder or pasterns.
 
Another doubter re the effects of late castration on conformation, topline yes but then correct work and feed will do that too.

One of my homebred colts had to be gelded at a week old due to a hernia. He ended up 18.00 hh with excellent conformation - inherited from his parents.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top