Lazy, Dull, young horse

[G8Gatsby]

I have a 4.5 year old Friesian cross I’ve had since a weanling. He’s always been very laid back and calm but now that we’re working on doing more riding and developming him, he’s just so incredibly lazy. I’ve already read a bunch of threads and articles on this and have tried everything including working with different trainers, but I just can’t get him sensitive and forward off my leg. He will work so hard to avoid working and of course it’s incredibly frustrating to ride. Does anyone have any different opinions? I mostly try the method of asking nicely and quietly first and when I get no response asking firmer ect until I get a response and then let off all pressure as a reward, but he immediately slows right back down, so it feels more like nagging and eventually he tunes me out. I did read in one of these forums actually though instead of asking harder until you get a response to just be annoying like tapping the whip (not smacking) until he responds. At first I thought this just sounds like nagging and he’d tune that out and become more dull.. but when I got to thinking about it it makes some sense.. when teaching anything from trailer loading to head down to trick training you use a gentle steady pressure or gentle tapping with a stick until you get annoying enough and they respond and you stop the pressure/tapping as reward. He responds well to that in other training avenues with basic things, would this be something good to try? Or is there something else? I’ve akso tried doing accordion type work to make him understand he has different gears in each gait other than slow, but I’ve not seen much improvement with that. Thanks.

 

[ycbm]

I believe PSSM is high in Friesians and it would account for your issues.

I would try a high dose of natural vitamin E and seeing if it makes as ny difference to him.

Have a look at the symptoms for PSSM and see if any alarm bells ring.

.

 

[G8Gatsby]

Thank you but he does not have any of those symptoms, this is just his personality when he’s not interested. He runs and plays in the field (24hr turnout) and if we incorporate some cavalletti or a fun pattern or riding on the trail he can be a little more peppy and forward, but it’s all on his time. If I ask him for forward and he’s not feeling it he just refuses or only gives me a few steps and then is right back to slow.

 

[Midlifecrisis]

He s a baby..they take time to mature. I’d do lots of hacking with very short bursts of schooling.

 

[G8Gatsby]

Right, he is young so I try to still make it fun and varied so he doesn’t learn to hate it.. He definitely gets bored easily and winds up developing new evasion tactics. I just want to be sure I’m setting a good foundation and not letting him develop bad habits. Thank you

 

[SpringArising]

What do you feed him?

 

[G8Gatsby]

Sentinel performance LS in AM and PM and in PM feeding I add nutrena empower topline balance as a top dressing and fresh ground flaxseed with unlimited access to hay and pasture.

 

[ycbm]

Thank you but he does not have any of those symptoms, this is just his personality when he’s not interested. He runs and plays in the field (24hr turnout) and if we incorporate some cavalletti or a fun pattern or riding on the trail he can be a little more peppy and forward, but it’s all on his time. If I ask him for forward and he’s not feeling it he just refuses or only gives me a few steps and then is right back to slow.

Those are the symptons in many horses until they get older.

 

[ihatework]

In no particular order things that may the main or partial cause:
Default temperament
Poor riding/training
Pain (lameness, saddle, myopathies)
Underlying internal disorder/bloods
Insufficient feed
Growing

 

[TotalMadgeness]

You can get him tested for PSSM - its about £30.

 

[be positive]

Thank you but he does not have any of those symptoms, this is just his personality when he’s not interested. He runs and plays in the field (24hr turnout) and if we incorporate some cavalletti or a fun pattern or riding on the trail he can be a little more peppy and forward, but it’s all on his time. If I ask him for forward and he’s not feeling it he just refuses or only gives me a few steps and then is right back to slow.

I have had a lot of horses in for schooling over the years and looking back I suspect several have had mild PSSM but this was before I had heard of it and very little was known generally, the symptoms were generally very minor and often the change of management, routine and the increase in work was enough to see improvement, they do not all tie up or show serious issues but it would be my first thought if there was no obvious physical reason for a horse to be disinterested and evasive, if it was one I had started then I would be even more inclined to try adding vit e to their diet.

 

[Petalpoos]

One of mine was like that, and she never really improved - other than cross country when she would fly along. Interestingly, although I don't normally 'do' Parelli etc., I saw a TV show where they were talking about 'Left brained introverts' and thought "That's my mare!". Particularly where they explained that such types may explode - and boy did she 'explode' for a couple of months when she was 7! Copied this off the Parelli site, it might be worth looking into.

The Left-Brain Introvert
‘Standing still is one of the Left-Brain Introvert’s favourite things!’ Sarah says. If your horse has this personality, at times he may have been labelled ‘lazy’ or ‘stubborn’ – but that’s not the case: he's just very clever at training you to put in more effort than he does. His calmness also makes him reliable and consistent.

Two ways to get the best out of your Left-Brain Introvert:

1. ‘The key to improving your riding with a Left-Brain Introvert is to find out what motivates him, and then to give him a distinct purpose,’ Sarah says. ‘A clear reward in the form of a treat or a short rest is the best way to do so for a horse with this personality type. Left-Brain Introverts can be persistent, so don’t let yourself be bullied into giving more treats than necessary!’
2. Another of Sarah’s tips is to employ some psychology of your own. ‘Left-Brain Introverts are “thinkers” and experts at getting other horses, as well as people, to do what they want. Because of this, they respond particularly well to reverse psychology. By asking your horse to do the opposite of what he expects, you’ll engage his mind and keep him on his toes.
   ‘For example, if your horse is hard to get going, ask him to go slower – really, really, really slow – and then watch as he automatically becomes more interested in the exercise. This approach will generally engage Left-Brain Introverts mentally, and will help you to increase your connection with them.’

 

[TotalMadgeness]

My big horse was deemed very lazy (from the age of 5) until he was investigated by the vets and found to have bone spavin. Now he's like a rocket! I have to say pre-diagnosis he always appeared to perk up when we did obstacle training but I think that was because he knew he'd get treats.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I really had hoped that the left brain/right brain stuff had died and fallen out of favour... I used to see it used to justify not getting a Vet to a horse with genuine physical issues 10 plus years ago. It was probably only second to mares being called 'marish' when they had kissing spines or some other problem, but still... not a helpful way of thinking and it does come from the team who withhold water and think that hitting a blind horse with a leadrope clasp is 'training' so...

 

[Michen]

I remember when I first had my connemara moaning about how boring and dull he was to hack.

He's now the hottest horse I've ever sat on... For him it was simply a case of weakness, growing, discomfort....

 

[Petalpoos]

I really had hoped that the left brain/right brain stuff had died and fallen out of favour... I used to see it used to justify not getting a Vet to a horse with genuine physical issues 10 plus years ago. It was probably only second to mares being called 'marish' when they had kissing spines or some other problem, but still... not a helpful way of thinking and it does come from the team who withhold water and think that hitting a blind horse with a leadrope clasp is 'training' so...

Yes - that's why I said I don't normally 'do' Parelli et al, but I have to say it is a good description of my horse for all that!

 

[Nudibranch]

Teeth
Tack fit
Foot pain
"Growing pain"
Spavin/OCD/DJD
PSSM
Back/sacroiliac/KS

Some youngsters do go through stages of "laziness" which are generally down to something like teeth or tack fit but any of the above will cause reluctance to work. Friesians are big and slow maturing, and rising 5 is still young in terms of physical and mental maturity. The rising 5yo I have at the moment still tires very easily and is often found napping in the field. They're still growing.

The only one I had who didn't grow/train out of his reluctance had hock and SI problems.

 

[catembi]

My young ISH turned out to have EPSM. Riding him felt like riding through treacle.

 

[G8Gatsby]

He has moments and days where he is more forward and moves nicely but some days he back tracks, which is normal in young horses, I just want to be sure I’m sending a clear message that gets a response. I’m having the vet out today for a general exam to make sure I’m not overlooking something and to ask about pssm testing, but he doesn’t sound at all like the descriptions and symptoms other than being not very motivated, and I’ve had him his whole life, his sire and dam did not have it. I also had his saddle checked last week and was told it couldn’t be a more perfect fit.

 

[G8Gatsby]

One of mine was like that, and she never really improved - other than cross country when she would fly along. Interestingly, although I don't normally 'do' Parelli etc., I saw a TV show where they were talking about 'Left brained introverts' and thought "That's my mare!". Particularly where they explained that such types may explode - and boy did she 'explode' for a couple of months when she was 7! Copied this off the Parelli site, it might be worth looking into.

The Left-Brain Introvert
‘Standing still is one of the Left-Brain Introvert’s favourite things!’ Sarah says. If your horse has this personality, at times he may have been labelled ‘lazy’ or ‘stubborn’ – but that’s not the case: he's just very clever at training you to put in more effort than he does. His calmness also makes him reliable and consistent.

Two ways to get the best out of your Left-Brain Introvert:

1. ‘The key to improving your riding with a Left-Brain Introvert is to find out what motivates him, and then to give him a distinct purpose,’ Sarah says. ‘A clear reward in the form of a treat or a short rest is the best way to do so for a horse with this personality type. Left-Brain Introverts can be persistent, so don’t let yourself be bullied into giving more treats than necessary!’
2. Another of Sarah’s tips is to employ some psychology of your own. ‘Left-Brain Introverts are “thinkers” and experts at getting other horses, as well as people, to do what they want. Because of this, they respond particularly well to reverse psychology. By asking your horse to do the opposite of what he expects, you’ll engage his mind and keep him on his toes.
   ‘For example, if your horse is hard to get going, ask him to go slower – really, really, really slow – and then watch as he automatically becomes more interested in the exercise. This approach will generally engage Left-Brain Introverts mentally, and will help you to increase your connection with them.’

That sounds exactly like my gelding! very interesting. He’s too young of course to do any real jumping yet, but my goal is cross country one day.. we’re trying to get a basic foundation in dressage but he gets so bored with it. When we do some cavalletti or even lunge over some tiny jumps he lights up though and really seems engaged and interested.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would take him out of the school and only hack him out .
I would do about six to eight circular rides about thirty to forty five minutes long .
I would have a friend up beside him and carry two long whips I would make sure I had a neck strap .
What I would teach him first is he needs to walk on his own I would only use the rein when really had to as soon as hes not walking out on his own he would get a whallop from both whips into a lose rein ( the neck strap comes in useful ) don’t use your leg you are showing him that he must move forward himself and your leg will eventually be for other things .
this is not a quick fix I am happy to take months working on walking forwards without the leg out hacking and I would except it to take up to six months on a young difficult horse .
I expect all my horses to be able to hack round my usual not controversial hacks without me telling them they need to go .
I work on this with every horse I get no matter how old and what it’s been doing .

Your horse may be ill or in pain in some way and you need to think this through as well .
there have been lots of suggestions above all sensible another is copper malabsorption which I found in one of mine , another is too much iron in the blood .I think a talk to a good problems with performance type vet is in order and a full blood screening .
But don’t ever use your legs when you feel you are working harder than the horse when this happens with any horse you need to stop step back and go back to the basic , that the horse must carry itself forwards on it own until you tell it something different .

 

[DabDab]

I'm afraid I'm another who would suggest a good physical check and a trial feeding a high dose of vitamin e just in case it's a muscle myopathy. And if all comes back clear then if it were my horse I would turn away for a year just to let his body strengthen and mature a bit more.

My big horse has pssm. Your description of your horse matches exactly what mine was like as a young horse. It took me until mine was 8 before I had worked out what was wrong with him and got any sort of decent handle on how to manage him. And now he's rising 11 I honestly can't believe the amount of power and movement that he had hidden away under those muscle issues.

 

[tristar]

did he learn to move forwards when being broken was he long reined and lunged thoroughly?

what processes did he he go through before being backed? i`d be very interested

it could be something physical,maybe the vet can show something, i don`t know, but i have bloodlines in my horses that are very laid back to difficult to motivate, until i find the key and something that turns them on, so i work with them as they are, because i can look back many generations and know where certain traits come from

as well i`ve had horses that others say were just plain thick, that was was until you found out what they were good at

he is very young and unfit. don`t rush work away steadily until you get some sort of level of fitness

i never ride with spurs, and have found the most lazy horses will in time become very sensitive to the leg while building on the schooling, and especially hacking, so its lots going on but all leading to the same thing, responsiveness is what is lacking here