Learning to ride on a horse that is learning to school properly

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Horsekaren

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Apologies for the wo with me post but here goes...
I'm dreaming of one day being super at dressage but that is a long way a way from where I am now.
I can walk, trot, canter, jump ect. I thought I was the bees knees in a riding school after 14 years but since leaving the riding school having a ten year break and getting my own wonderful horse and a properly trained dressage instructor I am realising the journey ahead is going to be a long one. My riding is actually super basic as it turns out the riding school didn't really teach me to ride, the horse was basically doing everything and I just had to sit and kick.

Since having my own boy I know I have improved ten fold, I have learned all about bending, yielding, using my legs, reins ect but lets be honest im still bad and trying to hit that magical moment when it all comes together.

I am trying to push him to work into a contact and I just cant, if I push him on and bring him back he will begin to drop and work from behind and I can keep it in walk but in trot we lose it even after about 3 months of trying.

My horse is a super star, he is 8 and his ridden career has been a little over 2 years as he was backed late. He is a really quick learner but I seem to be a bit slower. I want my horse to enjoy and eventually complete in entry level dressage competitions but im not sure if I am going to be doing that anytime soon. If I go for a lesson at a riding school I can get the contact if the horse is easy to give but my boy resists.

He is by no means to much horse for me, he is brilliant but I am trying to learn everything correctly and ride him correctly which both of us are adjusting to. I know he has competed in into A / B with his previous owner and did well so I know it can be done.

I'm really just after peoples opinions on how to help myself and him, we have lessons once a week with a fab instructor. I have a much more experienced rider who rides him very occasionally and she also struggles with working him correctly. I wonder if I should be looking for a rider or ask my instructor to have a go on him as I'm not sure I can teach him whilst I am figuring it out myself.



or is that just cheating? and will he leave me behind once he has got it and if I ask slightly incorrectly he will get confused?
 
just to add to the above my horse is an easy horse to ride in terms of his temperament, he goes he stops ect if I wanted to ride him badly we would be doing fab!
He is hard horse to ride because you cant get away with anything and he needs the correct support in everything which for me makes him great to learn on as I cant just pretend to be yielding ect, if I don't i'm either in the fence or off the track. if I don't ask him to go forward and mean it he wont ect, I don't mean I have to kick and whip him every stride but he knows if I don't mean it as he will try his luck HAHA all riding school should be full of these horses, would have helped me when I was younger :P
 
I'm firmly of the opinion that green can't teach green - and wherever possible a green combination should have regular external assistance. Lessons on a been there/done it type for you, so that you can learn how a horse going correctly should feel, and schooling from an experienced rider for your horse, so that he learns how to go correctly. Then the two of you can practice what you've learned together.
 
This could be me writing it.

No real advice but a few things that I keep reminding myself...you tend to only get an outline when you stop trying to get it and just ride well. Stop looking for it and concentrate on getting the horse between hand and leg and the rest will come.

Unaffiliated Intro dressage doesn't require a horse working perfectly in an outline, aim for a good consistent rhythm with a horse working forward and happy in his work. If you can ride the test with a smile on your face go and do it, don't wait for perfection.

I get mine schooled because he was younger than I intended to buy (his personality is spot on and I feel safe with him) but we need to work on using his back end more and lifting off the shoulder. I know what's required but I can admit, I can't teach him it clearly and consistently, so he gets time with an instructor riding. It isn't cheating, its giving him the best education I can. I also have lessons with the same instructor to make sure I keep working him as he needs to be worked.
 
Auslander said:
I'm firmly of the opinion that green can't teach green - and wherever possible a green combination should have regular external assistance. Lessons on a been there/done it type for you, so that you can learn how a horse going correctly should feel, and schooling from an experienced rider for your horse, so that he learns how to go correctly. Then the two of you can practice what you've learned together.
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So am I, get your instructor to do some schooling, part of your regular lesson if you struggle to fit it in, having the horse ahead of the rider can only be beneficial and is not cheating in any way.
 
I think you'd both benefit by your instructor riding him the first half of the lesson, explaining to you what she's doing whilst riding and then teaching you to do the same for the latter half. I'd probably choose to remove the additional "experienced" rider from the mix, too many cooks and all that... :)
 
thanks! ooo I think am going to ask my instructor to have a go on him :)
I do think sometimes it just looks so easy but anything that looks easy normally isn't as they say :)
I would be keen to see how he works with someone that knows there stuff properly, if she struggles then I can stop giving myself such a hard time.
when I think about what I am trying to do I do think its not going to be easy, he has been brught up to pull so trying to get him to drive from behind must be hard for him so of course I am finding it hard. That being said he CAN do it.

Are there any exercises that help engage the hind? maybe I need for of a distraction so i'm working on it but focusing on poles ect maybe?
 
Raised poles, spiralling in and out of a circle, lots of transitions and even a tail bandage around the quarters - use all these tricks on my sec D, some more on the lunge but can't see why not ridden :)
 
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Using poles is a great way to engage the horse physically and mentally, I use them for everything here on a very regular basis, once the horse gets how to use them properly there is so much you can do, it does also help to keep the rider focused on moving forward rather than thinking too much about what the horses head is doing, when the horse uses them well it brings the back and core up with far less input required from the rider.
 
I too could have written this! My horse is more experienced but after a break it's hard work!
I do however think you could try an intro test. Join your local RC, many do a winter and summer dressage series with intro classes. You don't have to be amazing, go enter one and have fun. Going out and about with my daughter the past years I've seen people who could barely trot a circle in into tests and working their way up. It's also quite good as you will get test sheets which you can look back on and show your instructor to see what needs work etc.
Google your local club and maybe just go along and watch a competition. They are usually low key and supportive
.... says me who keeps meaning to enter the next one ;) good luck
 
We've all been there - well, those of us who aren't lucky enough to be total naturals. I've ridden since I was 9 with very few breaks - a few months at most while I was away at University. I had a 14.1hh Sec D for 14 years from when we were both 13 until I lost him aged 27. He would jump anything but didn't 'do' dressage so I didn't bother. He jumped 4' and as a teenager, that's all I cared about! I thought I was chocolate and could have given John Whittaker a run for his money.

After he died I got a 16.3" IDx and all of a sudden I realised I wasn't a rider, I had been a passenger for 14 years. I had a riding instructor (not for very long) whose only contribution was "You ride like you're not a rider!" All my boy had done before I got him was hunt, so the school was very much a learning experience for him too. One of the best things I did was get a sharer who loved her dressage and loved schooling difficult horses. As he understood more of what was being asked of him, and I improved it all fitted together and we both came forward in leaps and bounds. Although I still couldn't say he loved it, I became a lot more interested in getting the flat work right (if not in dressage per se).

Then he went lame, became a (very) happy hacker and I started sharing a friend's horse. She mainly show jumped so he was no dressage horse although the basics were there with him. He is far more naturally gifted than my boy and far more trainable so we did a lot of dressage had lots of lessons and we both improved no end and we're now having a bash at elementary.

Last year, it was his turn to be lame so I started to do a bit more with my boy and the difference now that I know what I'm doing is incredible! We've even won a couple of prelim tests and done some novices - something I never would have thought possible when I rode "like I wasn't a rider""!

I'd definitely get someone more experienced to ride him and I'd find somewhere really good to have some lessons on a proper schoolmaster so you know what you're looking for and how to ask properly etc.
 
Continue with the lessons, have more if you can and as others have said, see if your instructor will mix the lesson, getting on your horse first. Also spend some time with your instructor working up a training plan - what does your typical week look like, what are your sessions focussed on etc. One session might be focussed on bending/ lateral suppleness, another on balance front to back, another on evenness of contact etc. I find it helps hugely to give the exercises an aim.

Your boy sounds lovely and hope you have lots of fun with him.
 
First things first, don't put yourself under too much pressure, these things take time and you should enjoy the journey along the way. Both horse and rider need to build up the skills, muscle, fitness etc to get there and I'm not sure there ever is a 'there' as it's seems like you never stop learning. But on a good way!

I've had some v similar experience and would def agree with having horse schooled regularly for you and then your lessons along side that. And give it time. I've been riding for quite a few years now, had various horses and a ton of lessons. I'm prob also a slow learner and still feel a long way off where I want to be, but am really enjoying it and have def made some great progress having upped lessons, changed ins and have that person school my horse weekly.
 
Get your instructor to ride him once a week too. If you could get lessons on a school master that would help you feel what you’re trying to achieve. It’s very difficult teaching a horse something when you’ve got no idea yourself.
 
I disagree with some on here, there is a very definite knack to having a horse yield to the pressure on the bit not push against the bit. It is more to do with feeling the movement of the bit minutely and then how quickly you release the pressure.

All the exercises, poles, transitions etc in the world won't help until you have acquired the knack (feeling a small change and responding by releasing minutely the pressure).

When teaching someone to do this I often remove the horse entirely, putting the rider at the other end of a rope/rein to my own hand. We can take turns at being the rider or horse, and feel the nuances. Much easier to train in the response when standing on the floor!

Then I would move to the horse on the floor and feel out the mouth again from the floor. Then from long reins. Only then would we mount up and feel it first of all in halt before moving off.

It is not some mystical thing, just a case of an anti-intuitive release before you have the "outline" that people want. It becomes all about the feel, not the outline.
 
It is almost impossible to teach a horse something you don't know yourself; the blind leading the blind....At least one of the combination should be the teacher; old horses for young riders, old riders for young horses was ever the rule when I was learning (from a very old teacher & his horse).
 
Don't try to push your horse into a contact. Forget about his head and concentrate on letting him find his rhythm. You need to find the trot that he is relaxed and comfortable with. Not so fast as he goes flat and on the forehand, but not so slow that he is not tracking up. Leave his head alone and concentrate on keeping a light and even feel. Use poles in various combinations and shapes to get him to look down and praise him when he does. Don't get after him too much. Let him work out his own rhythm and pace.
 
the best lesson i ever learned about riding was one day when i had a cold i just felt i could`nt make an effort to ride , so i just sat there and rode very gently, i was so relaxed, after about half an hour the horse started to go fantastically, i have based all my schooling since that day on that experience.

do not underestimate the length of time it takes to get there, and to that getting there can mean absorbing every nuance of sensation and reflecting on it afterwards, and you will never forget the key moments, they will always stay with you.
 
Thanks for all the advice :) maybe during winter whilst I cant ride quiet as much it would be good to find a rider even if I have to pay them to help bring him on.
In terms of getting him to work in an outline and dropping his nose ect I have given up trying with his bit at the moment, my instructor gets me to really get him going in front of me and then I start to pulse the reins and I can feel he starts to come back to me... but i'm still figuring out how to keep it. I know what I am looking for as after finding a good rhythm in trot and a downward transition to walk he collects himself, my hands are soft and its no effort to keep him there, just the odd pulse when I feel him falling out of it. Amazing feeling as i feel he is really carrying me :D

I have only really learned about contact in the last six months so im not giving myself to hard of a time, ive learned so much since having him, cant wait to see where I am in two year :D enjoying the journey :D just wish I had a fast forward button sometimes :D
on the positive side once I have it sussed on him im sure I will be pretty darn good at it :P I hope any ways :)
 
It does seem the way with riding schools doesn't it. In my riding school years I thought I was great. Turns out I'm pretty crap too lol. I went to four or five different schools and in reality learnt very little.

I didn't get taught canter leads, had no clue about lateral work, what on earth was inside bend? Not a clue about how to ride a turn without losing the shoulder because would turn with one rein and had never been told otherwise, asking for canter was just sit and kick, terms like tracking up, working from behind, collection, outline were completely alien.

It's a great shame that it seems to be the norm at most riding schools.
 
haha completely! the first time I went to view and ride the horse I now own I was cantering across the school and just presumed he would turn like they do in the schools.... nope we just charged towards the fence with a quick swerve at the end! right away I knew he was going to teach me to ride :D



Peter7917 said:
It does seem the way with riding schools doesn't it. In my riding school years I thought I was great. Turns out I'm pretty crap too lol. I went to four or five different schools and in reality learnt very little.

I didn't get taught canter leads, had no clue about lateral work, what on earth was inside bend? Not a clue about how to ride a turn without losing the shoulder because would turn with one rein and had never been told otherwise, asking for canter was just sit and kick, terms like tracking up, working from behind, collection, outline were completely alien.

It's a great shame that it seems to be the norm at most riding schools.
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Horsekaren said:
haha completely! the first time I went to view and ride the horse I now own I was cantering across the school and just presumed he would turn like they do in the schools.... nope we just charged towards the fence with a quick swerve at the end! right away I knew he was going to teach me to ride :D
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Your horse cannot teach you to ride: you need a good instructor, a schoolmaster horse, a good library, much dedication and an open mind. If neither of you knows very much it will be a very uncomfortable experience, especially for the horse, and you run the risk of ruining or rendering unfixable a nice horse.
 
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I know he cant actually teach me to ride, it was a tongue and cheek comment.
As im sure most people will agree the transition from a riding school horse to a private horse is not an easy task. Riding school horses do the same thing constantly, they know to follow the fence unless you tell them otherwise. By him teaching me i meant he will not simply ride round the track, or a 20m circle as a riding school horse would. He needs direction and he certainly needs me to tell him what way to go ect.
I have spent a small fortune on lessons and will continue to do so.

My horse was sold as a novice ride and he absolutely is. I am just trying my best not to waist him, hence my OP looking for advise on how to help the both of us.










Cortez said:
Your horse cannot teach you to ride: you need a good instructor, a schoolmaster horse, a good library, much dedication and an open mind. If neither of you knows very much it will be a very uncomfortable experience, especially for the horse, and you run the risk of ruining or rendering unfixable a nice horse.
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I just think that anything is possible but you have to be prepared to put in the work - and along with that it means hours & hours of instruction, lessons, training, reading, more riding, more lessons & getting as much help as you need when you need it.

I also think it depends on the horse and the rider. If the horse has a forgiving temperament, a willingness to learn & patience then thats a good start. And if you as a rider have determination, feel the fear & do it anyway attitude & willing to push yourself, then I think alot can be achieved!

I think its a great idea to ride a schoolmaster dressage horse to learn what a 'contact' feels like - it took me forever to get the 'feel' that everyone was talking about but once I got - there was no going back! And do definitely have your horse somewhere where a more experienced rider can ride them once a week or more if needs & teach both of you together then aswell.

And best of luck!
 
Peter7917 said:
It does seem the way with riding schools doesn't it. In my riding school years I thought I was great. Turns out I'm pretty crap too lol. I went to four or five different schools and in reality learnt very little.

I didn't get taught canter leads, had no clue about lateral work, what on earth was inside bend? Not a clue about how to ride a turn without losing the shoulder because would turn with one rein and had never been told otherwise, asking for canter was just sit and kick, terms like tracking up, working from behind, collection, outline were completely alien.

It's a great shame that it seems to be the norm at most riding schools.
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This reminds me a lot of how people diss careers advice at school - its just standard isnt it, it never does you any good and everybody is a product of their own superlative efforts and nothing else.
I'm sure RS instructors and owners stay away from these posts.
I went to a super RS learned loads including the list above and MUCH MUCH more. I bought my first horse from our RS when it closed. Tbh I'd never have owned a horse were it not for that RS. They are a great way for enabling those who werent born into it through wealth or tradition to access our hobby, sport, whatever you call it.
Oh yes I had lots still to learn. But many other experienced riders I now know reckon that some RS horses are just the Hardest to ride as they have developed lots and lots of ways to evade and it takes skilful riding to get a tune.
 
I used to be a pretty good show jumper when I was young. Then took time out for work, marriage, babies. My daughter is a fab dressage rider and when she quit, I took her horse on. He was very well schooled. I lost him unfortunately and as I’d got the riding bug, bought a green lump of a horse that I knew needed lots and lots of schooling. Thought, this will be no problem as I was riding my daughters horse. I soon realised that I was crap and we were not getting anywhere. Luckily, my daughter dressage instructor came to my aid and we begun lessons, green horse with an attitude and a 50 year old housewife who hadnt ridden properly since I was a teenager. It’s not been easy. He bolted and bronced everytime I rode. My riding was stripped right back and he was basically re bitted and backed. But, we’re getting there. Going up and down the gears. Has an impressive extended trot. Lateral work etc. It can be done but you need a really really good dressage instructor. Lots of practice. Determination. Expect some days to be rubbish in the lesson and be pleased with any progress.
 
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Frank and I muddled along and taught each other lots of things with a series of improving instructors. Yes it took longer than if he knew, or I knew but the journey was great fun.
Until then I had history riding poorly schooled riding school ponies (and mostly ponies, we had one ex eventer who was a correct ride and lovely if you could nab him!) and one of the liveries correctly going dales pony who gave me a taste of feel.

I went from doing leg yield wrongly, not really asking for canter properly, minimal idea of contact and little concept of my outside rein...

to getting all of these things right and just perfecting our half pass when I retired him and I must have taught him the correct buttons as I could hop on a schoolmaster and get them to do everything too :p. - I would definitely recommend that if you can though, it gave me a totally different idea of correctness and bend (much to Frank's shock afterwards!). We definitely accelerated when we had access to a school and it was a shame he was getting on a bit then.
 
I am sure there are some really good riding schools out there but mine really wasn't, it was a half asked shack of a place, im absolutely sure they didn't have a school master the horses were all just sane happy hackers with a understanding to go round and round the school until you reached the back of the ride...

I have booked a super experience competition rider to come and give my boy a good schooling session in a couple of weeks :D i am also going to try and get a lesson on a school master at a local riding school :D

I rode my boy this morning and i can honestly say that it was the best i have ever ridden without an instructor. I get nervous and tend to make my reins shorter as he is picking up pace. Not today though! i wouldn't settle for anything other than a active trot and didn't sneak my reins shorter and it was brilliant!!! I could feel him working from behind, he was listening and a few tweaks on the bit and i began to see the bend in his neck as he was bringing his head down still need a lot of work but i'm understanding how the contact comes from behind in a sense, i cant just pull him down. He bending well/ riding strait and yielding to my legs across the school :D
This morning i felt like we really started to click on our own :D normal only have that feeling after a lesson!
Really am inspired :D so lucky to have such a kind trooper of a first horse !
 
Sounds like a good plan. A combination of having your own horse schooled/ridden by a more experienced rider whilst taking lessons on a more experienced horse is for sure the way to go. Expensive, but generally worth it.

And it's not just a tactic that novice riders take either. I've done similar myself in the past when moving up the dressage levels.
 
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