Leasing Competition Horses..your experiences,pls tell me all.

SaharaS

SaharaS

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Hello...

After a bit of advice really, from anyone who currently leases or has leased a horse to compete or leases their horse out to a rider to be competed.

Just to clarify I do not mean the standard loaning of "any horse", but leasing as in money being paid to the owner.. I'm interested to know as much as possible about the ins,outs & everything else you can tell me..good, bad & ugly! I am very uncomfortable with loaning, but when a rider is a pro or a certain standard, it makes it an entirely different ball game ( I hope!) If you prefer I am happy to have pms. Any ideas on contracts and if you have them specifically drawn up by an equine legal person so they have some worth..how long..notice periods..what happens if's...keeping in touch/visiting rights/any say you retain in things/insurance...I ought to stop there before I scare myself out of it. I'm sure I will have a hundred more questions by the time I come back on here..I'm sure anyone who's ever done this will know the things they regret (if any) and the things they would do differently the next time...

Very grateful for any advice you can offer...not sure food offerings are allowed in CR...so on much contemplation, the figs & dates wrapped in bacon & mini brandy mince pies...well..I've eaten them all!:D
 
I kind of have this arrangement with my boy, owner wants a horse, hasn't got masses of time, and wanted something more than the normal low maintainence type of horse, so she got Dash and looked for someone to ride / compete him. She wants to do a little bit herself next year but at the minute is only really coming up Sunday and some Saturday's when I work anyway. If I'm competing I take the day off work and she comes and watches (or will do wheb we start competing this weekend) I pay a little and I mean little amount to his keep and his shoes (fronts) as he wouldn't need them if I wasn't riding. I ride 5/6 times a week and am allowed to do anything I want. She has said come summer she doesn't want any money from me at all as I'm doing her the favour.

I have a fabby horse to ride who is easy going but talented enough, so I'm very lucky.

I'm FAR from a pro, but I'm reliable, experienced, and have lessons all the time and want to get better- and this wonderful lady has provided me with a horse to do it all with.
 
Jenni, that isn't a lease. A lease is essentially a full loan but with the loaner paying an additional 'rental fee' on top. OP from my experience 10% of horse value per annum is pretty standard
 
My best friend at college leased a mare after her horse had to be PTS due to suspected brain tumour (insurance wouldn't pay out) and they couldn't afford to buy another one at the same level. She did BYRDs on her old horse and did try out with new leased mare but didn't make the cut. I don't know what contract they had (I know they had one though) and I think things ended on friendly terms although I believe the girl took the mare back earlier than friend would have liked and was led to believe (I presume this was written in contract that she could take her back whenever with so much notice).

Im afraid I don't have much extra helpful information. From what I've seen it works well like in friends situation with established horse and established rider, but not sure if there would possibly be issues if leasing a young but talented horse and then the rider who leased the horse took it up the levels and added a significant amount of value onto the horse which might cause some conflict between owner and leaser if owner took horse back? I would imagine all issues could be addressed by contract would question if it would be worth the hassle. Don't have much experience with it tbh, sure there will be more knowledgable replies! :)

ETA- as above I thought friend payed 10% of value per annum
 
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I know someone who leases (or did last time i saw her) a show pony. This is a top class animal who wins prolifically. Owner has had 3 'blank' cheques offered for said horse (well not literally, but a sort of 'name your price we expect it to be huge' kind of thing) but as they bred it they wanted to keep it.
My friend & her daughter are very well known on the circuit & horse owner was keen for them to take on the pony, however I do know that the monthly lease fee is pretty sizeable.
That said they did win at HOYS so I suspect friend thought it was worth it :D
There was a very extensive contract. The owner dictated farrier, vet etc. No changes to feed to be made without discussing with owner first. No changes to tack/bit. Any trainer had to be approved by owner. Were just some of the things on it as well as the usual who was responsible for what, notice periods & letting owner visit.
 
Thank you for all of these..particularly the percentage. Glamourpuss your friend sounded lucky! the thing is if its that good a horse * a homebred,would be such a hard call when to accept, if ever..some horses I could..others I'd never part with...but then I'm not as business minded as some!I've made the mistake selling one to what i thought was the perfect home..can't go back now * the amount of scary people who have come to see my homebred have been beyond ridiculous in their ways, someone suggested leasing * initially I was rather concerned as I'm incredibly uneasy about loaning..especially with a younger animal.. but this seems like an ideal senario..admittedly I would agree that the rider stands to lose and gain, depending on how you view it..yes a horse may not be perfect enough, but equally a rider could ruin a horse..so I think its risky enough for both..I like how your friends contract included even down to the fed changes.. thinking how indepth they must have gone certainly fills me with alot more confidence. Thank you for you help..still interested if anyone has more to ad:-)
 
Friends of mine lease a pony, they have had it 4 years and it is now due to go back as outgrown. They pay around 10% of its value, rather inflated in my view but they are happy to have had the use of him without the stress of buying and selling.
They purchased all of his tack and rugs at the start of the lease period, pay all expenses including insurance. The contract was very detailed, no change of vets, feed etc, as time has gone on some leeway has been allowed and in many ways the pony has improved and some requirements are no longer applicable, he was meant to need sedating for clipping but I have never even needed sedalin, he has gone out and won BE so is a great schoolmaster for the next child that leases him.

If you want I may be able to let you have a copy of the lease, it was all drawn up by a solicitor.
 
be positive said:
Friends of mine lease a pony, they have had it 4 years and it is now due to go back as outgrown. They pay around 10% of its value, rather inflated in my view but they are happy to have had the use of him without the stress of buying and selling.
They purchased all of his tack and rugs at the start of the lease period, pay all expenses including insurance. The contract was very detailed, no change of vets, feed etc, as time has gone on some leeway has been allowed and in many ways the pony has improved and some requirements are no longer applicable, he was meant to need sedating for clipping but I have never even needed sedalin, he has gone out and won BE so is a great schoolmaster for the next child that leases him.

If you want I may be able to let you have a copy of the lease, it was all drawn up by a solicitor.
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Good to hear yet another positive arrangement, sounds like a cracking pony. That would be brilliant thank you, I can imagine my arrangement will be extra complicated so would be very useful to have some guidance to build on! The only thing I can see would be misinterpretation and miss description of things..such as not changing feed..some would take this as brand..others would maybe think in amounts..which could be detrimental to the horses welfare.. tho I guess you would have a fair idea before you got that far as to how things might be 'understood' or not. I'm still really liking the idea...be interesting to hear anyone who had a bad experience..if only for balance.(I'm very happy to have 100% positives on this tho!

tonkatoy said:
Hello!

I paid 2k for an advanced eventer in 2003 in the UK to lease for the year!! feel free to pm if you want to know anything more!!
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Thank you!:)
 
Saharas, you mentioned this is a young horse you want to lease ... IME all leased horses have been schoolmasters, I'm pro lease but would pay extra for a youngster I'm afraid
 
Leasing is very common where I'm from, so I probably have more experience than most on here. We used various contracts, depending on the situation - they hardly ever dictated things like feed, more often they contained a general instruction that the owner needed to be consulted about any change or circumstance outside of any specific instructions. So, for example, my horse's had a clause saying the lessor had to ask me for permission before ANYONE other than her rode the horse for any reason. In practice I always said yes but it did give me a veto and also gave her protection when her friends wanted to ride her spiffy horse - she could just say no because it was a condition of the lease.

Most contained instructions about where the horse could live but again, more of a remit to consult. In reality we never leased any horse out unless it was under the direct control of a trainer we liked (or one of our own students) and did regular business with, so everyone was very invested in a good outcome.
 
Young horses are not lease material as the rider has to invest so much time into the horse.It is more common at the upper competition levels and make sure the contract is watertight as I know of lots of owners being handed back broken horses as its a bit like renting a car .If you have no financial involvement your not so careful.
 
That would be much tougher to do here.

As far as the sorts of horses that got leased. . .ihw has a very valid point! If money changed hands (even free leases were usually done with a contract) then it was always for a horse with a proven skill set. Many leases are for relatively short term specific goals - big money is often paid for Equitation horses (which don't even exist here) as really good ones are like hen's teeth and kids have a limited time in the Eq ring so parents will pay to have a successful few years and then not have the hassle of selling the horse at the end. On the other side, a good Eq horse can lease for 1/3 value so can technically pay for itself many times over. My own horse took his first lessor to affiliated eventing and from the equivalent of Prelim to Adv Med dressage in about 18 months. We also had a couple of safe but competitive show horses that were leased out to people just getting into showing but with ambitions.

GP jumpers or other professional horses on their way down make up much of the pool. Usually they won't vet and/or require careful management but provide invaluable experience. Of course not every horse like that will work for less experienced riders, which is why the ones that do are worth money.

Occasionally people lease young horses of a quality they cannot buy, although it would need to be very fancy and pretty much ready to win. I've not heard of pros leasing horses. If they are good enough to be pros then presumably they will be adding value to the horse!
 
Sorry, was not quick enough to continue!

Loaning out nice but green horses is a different discussion. I would be wary, frankly, on both sides.
 
Leasing a green horse doesn't make sense to me. There is much work that needs to be done so not always sure what the rider would get out if it. Leasing an experienced schoolmaster DOES make great sense though. Something a friend has done ( but she is a professional ) was to take on a very good baby, but costs, sale times and goals were all agreed upfront as was who was paying for what plus a review time as well.
 
As above, I do know many situations where a pro has effectively gone into partnership with an owner, investing their time, resources and possibly even absorbing some other costs, usually with a view to selling and/or guaranteeing the ride to a certain point, say a Championship. Sometimes it works very well, but I've also known a couple of people who have ended up in court!

In a case like that I would want everything spelled out to the letter - cost breakdown, decision making process, timeframe, communication requirements etc. - and a VERY clear breakdown of how and potential profit will be allotted.
 
Thank you all again, very good, strong, valid points. I used the word 'pro' lightly, as in not the Mary Kings of our world, but riders who ride professionally for them selves...are climbing the ladder so to speak but are still good and established in their discipline. Money..well this is an important factor, but hope no one thought i was thinking mega income-I've a friend who is young, rides brilliantly * was offered a horse to lease, but the astronomical 5 figure price per year made it un realistic to accept-she's very early 20's with her own horses numbering double figures..so not like a one or no horse person needing a schoolmaster..it was simply an opportunity. On the other hand, as with the car lease analogy, you want to have enough money so the person taking the horse perhaps feels its more than a commodity and hopefully takes more care with it. My situation is a bit peculiar as i was selling the horse, then decided against..but was then approached by someone I trust who knows someone looking for exactly what my horse is and when I stated he wasn't for sale, they suggested leasing, specifically as I m very anti loaning for personal reasons * experiences that I won't go into on this thread, I simply do not feel easy with it,even if it stayed on my own yard, tho this would not be possible as the rider * her trainer are several hours away.My personal circumstances(non financial ones I mean,mainly health/pain/power loss affecting my consistency as I have good * bad days * days, would perhaps suit this situation for where the horse currently is at.they are fully aware of where the horse is experience wise * what the horse is etc etc which to be honest very much surprised me as I also only thought it would be applicable to stallions leased to studs perhaps, and also elite horses that would possibly be averaging the price of most peoples house which is why I have posted. Yes there would be an afwul lot of risk involved, possibly for both parties but I needed to understand the situation more before I give it any serious thought. I know I said selling is a final thing and you can regret it, but when you've put everything into a horse * been there from birth and been part of everything he has done, the risks I guess with leasing would be equally big particularly if it all went wrong, I'm not in nthe best health position to pick up the pieces if they messed him up..although it could potentially be the perfect situation for everyone involved. My other option was to find a rider who wanted to compete him * ride him from my yard under my direct supervision(not best word but you know what I mean!!) so I would still know about everything that was happening..with minimal risks..but not yet found someone...ideally they would need to be suffering with a horse deficiency * hankering to compete as I'm not in a position to commit to paying someone long term the sort of prices it would probably take...

Everything at the moment tho is simply me wanting to understand the lease system pro's * cons so I can make the right decision..thank you all again for your help:)

ETA apologies for the stars..they were all "and's" till I hit post!and then the silly quot stars..what IS going on with HHO...happening on several threads at the mo but apologies if it makes for hard reading:(
 
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As ihatework and TarrSteps have said leases are almost exclusively for experienced horses whose ability to be successful has been demonstrated.

We have a very, very good and experienced JA pony who when outgrown by A we considered leasing until younger brother B was old enough for her. She would have been the perfect candidate for a lease having a consistent track record but my worry was that someone paying for a set period would want to get every penny's worth from her and would therefore not give due consideration to her care. We chose instead to loan her to a family who approached the arrangement with gratitude and the understanding that they were very fortunate, and so they looked after her with kid gloves.

So much depends on the actual people involved as I'm sure most lease horses are very well cared for and appropriately worked but for us it was a risk we weren't prepared to take for the pony's sake.

OP best of luck. I'd have thought that getting someone to ride your horse for you from home might work well but it's getting the right person and if you want experienced and professional you would have to pay them in all likelihood.
 
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If you can get someone to pay you to develop your horse (who is a good enough rider to do so, barring the vagaries of Fate) then do it! You won't get too many possibilities. Most young professionals are not in a position to pay to lease a young horse and would be better served by leasing, say, a 2* schoolmaster.

Just to measles' point about the work load, when we leased comp horses there were always very set rules about how much they could compete, what levels etc. Realistically it wasn't that big a deal for us, as everyone goes to the same shows and most horses are only eligible for a limited number of divisions, but it did mean they could not drag the horse to every little show, even if the trainer would have gone for that.

Also, many commercial leases are not necessarily void if the horse or rider are injured, especially if there is a question of negligence. I've known people pay for three months for a horse to stand in the barn! And in one famous case an American Jr rider leased the top hunter in the nation for (rumoured) $100k, fell off it at the first show and broke her collarbone very badly, had surgery and months off, and the horse got a very expensive holiday. :)
 
Thank you Measles * TarrSteps again...its such a tough, tough thing to do and know whats best..I do everything myself with mine and very rarely have any help or other people about so even trusting someone to step in when i go away(very rarely) is hard enough, let alone send a horse away! I'm not precious over them as in other peoples abilities(care or otherwise) but having been let down before or things not getting done properly i find it hard..I put my life * my everything into my horses * have no life really outside them so it means alot to me.Even if I'm away for half a day or a night, I prepare everything for who ever does them, write notes out for what ifs (due to the numbers and also they all like us have their own quirks etc..so its just to make it easy for the person!)so when things don't get done as agreed when its all ready done for them, I totally lost my confidence * trust in others..(ok new years day one year breakfast was given by groom at 2pm..she'd been paid £50 extra ontop of her usual fee due to 10 horses at the time. it was feed, check rugs, turn out.hays were in field, feeds were pre mixed outside each door covered. she just needed to add beet. I got there at 2.05 one was on floor colicing with feed next to him, others still munching * knee deep in *** -cost me £400 odd in vet fees but luckily that horse was ok...so as silly as it sounds, I now very easily worried when it comes to trusting people with them...this happened 10 years ago this New year and I have to say, th only time i've really relaxed was when a member on here did my 6 a couple of Christmases ago..she didn't have a mobile, it was snowing, but she did them all perfectly * came up the day before to meet them all and rang to say all well once home..(tbh I was as worried about her as i was about them as it was evily icy * bleak here) so that was the first time i've felt trully comfortable about other people since the New Year debacle-other girls have had mobiles yet not even bothered to text to say done so this was very much appreciated...(HHO member has her own livery yard so was more than used to the numbers * worried owners!!!)..this is why its such a big thing for me to consider loaning/leasing...:o I'm easily attached so selling is hard enough..I just want to do the right thing, not get taken for a twit and while 99% of people out there are brilliant * genuine * perfect...I usually find the 1% that treat them as commodities or leased cars.. i do need to try * detach myself slightly * take a risk occasionally...tho I'm sure Measles (at least) you'll understand why I worry..glad everything turned out well for your pony...little ones like that are invaluable!

quickly offers mince pies before those on here who detach easily come after me to shake me:p
 
The only other thing I would add is don't get too hung up on loaning = people don't care, or the more someone pays for a lease the more investment they have etc.

A set sum of money means different things to different people and cannot really be quantified as to how well someone will ride or care for your horse. It is completely down to the person in question, their general attitude etc.

For example I was recently searching for a loan or lease. An oppertunity came up and I am the very very lucky recipient of a chamionship level horse (worthy of leasing) on a free loan ....

I can't tell you how grateful I am to the owner for giving me the oppertunity to learn on such a horse. And I am probably MORE careful with this horse than I may be with one I owned myself (although I'm pretty careful with those too ;) )
 
My friend has a couple of nice young horses she is progressing for owners. She doesn't pay the owner for the right to do it, they pay her. I can't imagine anyone paying for the right to pour money and time into a young horse which isn't theirs and which they can't guarantee isn't going to be sold when it reaches a decent level.

I do know someone who leased a show pony but said pony had won at HOYS RIHS etc and was really at the top of his particular game so was worth the money :)
 
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Tbh, I'd be leery of a pro wanting to pay to produce a young horse! Even if it's their first crack at it, there is no shortage of owners happy to do deals for the right person to just cover costs.

I would be more worried, frankly, you would attract people with a bit of money who want to think of themselves as professionals!

I think ihw makes a valid point. If your goal is to find someone grateful to find the horse, a good, well trained YR or smateur is s better bet.
 
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