Legal advise on payment plan

Thriller

Thriller

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I know someone who's been paying for their horse for some years as agreed. Times up and there is still a lot of money to pay, but the horse in question has cost loads in vet bills due to an injury

Owners have said they're coming for the horse - but where does the buyer stand? Will they loose all the money they have already paid and what about the money they are out with the vets bills?
 
Paying over years sounds more like a lease than a purchase how expensive was the horse that it has taken so long and still not paid for, the terms of the original agreement will stand, the injury is irrelevant as are the vet bills, is the horse worth more or less now than at the start.
It may be worth them seeking proper advice if they want to keep it but that will cost them and if they dont have the outstanding balance they probably wont have money to pay for a solicitor, the BHS may offer advice if they are members but the original contract should be clear on what needs to be done, my guess is if they dont pay the horse goes back and they lose the money which I think morally is the correct thing unless the horse is significantly more valuable than when they took it on so can be sold to get back all costs.
 
I'd say the horse is worth probably the same amount. I don't know how expensive it was but I would say it was substantial enough. its v sad for them as they love the horse more than anything and work very hard to pay but life being what it is is getting in the way. She's had and cared for it for three years.. ill advise bhs tho thanks
 
I have sold two in the last twelve months on extended terms I have a very strict written agreement that covers me completely. IE the horse is still my property until payed for in full ,If they decide to bail out mid agreement they still owe me the full price of the horse. They have very strict dates by when the horse has to be paid for by. If not it will be collected next day.
I am afraid if someone sells you a horse on extended terms they are actually trying to bend over to help you and taking a personal risk! why would you want to go back on the deal you struck with them ,thats a lovely way of saying thank you.
 
Thriller said:
I'd say the horse is worth probably the same amount. I don't know how expensive it was but I would say it was substantial enough. its v sad for them as they love the horse more than anything and work very hard to pay but life being what it is is getting in the way. She's had and cared for it for three years.. ill advise bhs tho thanks
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Its sad for them!! what about the previous owner I am sure nobody forced them to buy it . Misfortune hits us all at some times and you just have to roll with the punches and if they cannot afford to pay any more they will just have to take it on the chin.

I must admit I question the sanity of somebody who has given them that length of time to pay!!!
 
I'm sure they had their own reasons. I'm not privy to all the info. All I know is someone has been paying a lot of money for a horse they will now have to give back and will loose all that money on top of extensive vet bills and time invested. Doesn't seem fair on her, the horse or the owners who will have to try and find another home as good as the one he is in now.
 
Thriller, would you say it was unfair for some-one to buy a car on Hire purchase, have it break down, repair it, not pay off the loan and have the car repossessed?
 
If as you say 'time is up' then it sounds like possibly the payments have not been met as there should be no outstanding money

Its a real shame but I doubt they have a leg to stand on as it could be argued that vets bills are one of those things you can get and should pay regardless of whether you own, loan, lease etc and the horse could have been insured

Two ways I would see things differently are:

A) the owner didn't disclose a medical problem and the vets bills were caused by not being aware (eg ulcers got out of hand)
B) the value of the horse has been damaged by the illness
 
Thriller said:
I'm sure they had their own reasons. I'm not privy to all the info. All I know is someone has been paying a lot of money for a horse they will now have to give back and will loose all that money on top of extensive vet bills and time invested. Doesn't seem fair on her, the horse or the owners who will have to try and find another home as good as the one he is in now.
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I would suggest if you feel so bad for her you pay off the remaining money for her! I cannot understand your point ,like I say I doubt she was forced into buying it .
How is it different from if she like most people bought the horse outright from the start ,would she now be going back to the seller saying I want my money back.
I have no sympathy with her on that point ,however I am sorry she is having hard times but have to say as soon as you have to buy a horse on extended terms you are on a very slippery slope if things go wrong and from experience some people with horses are their own enemy.

I know this wont apply in her case, but my agreements do allow the buyer to get their money back if they default but only if the horse is saleable and my initial sale price is covered all they get back is the amount after my cost are covered up to the initial price.

I know the next thing you will say is 'They dont have a written agreement' well best of luck to both of them.

Is it an option for your friend to sell the horse to cover the final payment rather than the seller take it back at least she might get something back that way!
 
She can't sell it - it's not hers to sell. If she has defaulted on the agreement (not paid or paid late) seller can reclaim their asset. And should do.

The moral to this tale is don't buy a horse on the tick...
 
blitznbobs said:
She can't sell it - it's not hers to sell. If she has defaulted on the agreement (not paid or paid late) seller can reclaim their asset. And should do.

The moral to this tale is don't buy a horse on the tick...
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I meant with the sellers agreement !!

If there is no agreement this could get very messy because as much as I feel the buyer is morally obliged to pay what is due I am not sure I would give up custody just like that .
 
Never, ever, buy or sell livestock except by cash. And then ownership passes with the money. If the buyer can afford to pay in instalments, they can afford to save up and buy when they have the purchase price. I am not even comfortable about selling a foal "at weaning" with a deposit now. Cash is king when it comes to live animals. Too many things can go wrong. I have occasionally been asked if I can give money back when things have not worked out but for some strange reason no purchaser has ever offered to pay me extra because the animal I've sold has turned out even better than I said it would!:(
 
popsdosh said:
I meant with the sellers agreement !!

If there is no agreement this could get very messy because as much as I feel the buyer is morally obliged to pay what is due I am not sure I would give up custody just like that .
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She's got no choice. I would find it difficult which is why I only buy animals for real actual bank notes handed over and receipt signed there and then
 
Wasn't the horse insured for vets bills? If this was turned around ad we were reading....I had a top horse and let the purchaser pay for her over x years. Problem is, they still owe a lot of money and are saying that there have been large vets bills to pay..I think you would feel differently. It is bad luck the horse racked up time off but ...that's horses. If I was that keen I would look to take out a loan to pay the difference AND insure the horse properly (although I can't understand why that wasn't a criteria in the first place)
 
Dry Rot said:
Never, ever, buy or sell livestock except by cash. And then ownership passes with the money. If the buyer can afford to pay in instalments, they can afford to save up and buy when they have the purchase price. I am not even comfortable about selling a foal "at weaning" with a deposit now. Cash is king when it comes to live animals. Too many things can go wrong. I have occasionally been asked if I can give money back when things have not worked out but for some strange reason no purchaser has ever offered to pay me extra because the animal I've sold has turned out even better than I said it would!:(
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Generally I agree but occasionally as in my case because I want the horses I breed to have their best chance to achieve and you need to compromise. I also like to think I am helping out two up and coming riders get a foot on the ladder,I hope one day they may remember what I did for them.
I have a very comprehensive agreement in place drawn up by an expert in credit agreements ,must admit up till now not had any issues as we all know where we stand and the consequences of default.
I dont really see a huge problem because lets face it where would our car industry be without credit sales of all sorts.
I think Dry Rot you may be surprised how much livestock going through our markets is funded by credit nowadays I am afraid it is a sign of our times and extremely low interest rates available that are lower than OD rates.
 
blitznbobs said:
She's got no choice. I would find it difficult which is why I only buy animals for real actual bank notes handed over and receipt signed there and then
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I dont disagree with you It is a very difficult one as morally she has no choice ,however if the seller drew up no agreement under law I think things would be less clear cut as there are all sorts of laws that cover this type of transaction. Thats Why I had an expert draw up my agreements and my buyers had the choice of whether they signed them or not.
 
ester said:
The credit doesn't usually come from the previous owner though! If she wants to keep the horse get a loan and pay owner off ....
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It does in law if thats what has been offered! which it clearly has or do you have a different term for extended payments.
 
So she could definitely get the money she's paid up to now back? There is a written contract but from what she's saying it doesn't mention money coming back.
 
The illness doesn't come into it - the horse and all associated costs are the purchaser's responsibility while it's in their care. The current value can't have a bearing either - the purchaser could do all sorts of things to reduce the horse's value and you wouldn't expect the price to be reduced; equally if the purchaser increased the horse's value while they had it you wouldn't expect the seller to increase the price. The cost should be fixed at the start and non-negotiable afterwards unless explicitly stated at the start.

If they haven't met the payments the seller has every right to take it back - think of it as if it were a car, or a house, or a TV, which was broken and not paid for.
 
Thriller said:
So she could definitely get the money she's paid up to now back? There is a written contract but from what she's saying it doesn't mention money coming back.
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She needs to take legal advice from a lawyer who looks at the contract, but I don't think anyone on this thread thinks she is entitled to get her money back, UNLESS the agreement specifically states she can if she defaults. All the examples quoted of people getting their money back are where that has been specifically allowed by the contract. If it doesn't mentioned her getting her money back, I wouldn't hold out much hope ...
 
Thriller said:
So she could definitely get the money she's paid up to now back? There is a written contract but from what she's saying it doesn't mention money coming back.
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Who has said she should get her money back nobody . I have that possibility written into my contracts but its not a right if she has not stuck to what is in the contract.
To be honest the only way you can realistically expect to get anything back is to get the money from somewhere to pay off the seller and then sell the horse so you retain all that money. Or you just put it down to experience and send the horse back. I think you are being very naive would you if the boot was on the other foot reimburse them.
 
popsdosh said:
Who has said she should get her money back nobody . I have that possibility written into my contracts but its not a right if she has not stuck to what is in the contract.
To be honest the only way you can realistically expect to get anything back is to get the money from somewhere to pay off the seller and then sell the horse so you retain all that money. Or you just put it down to experience and send the horse back. I think you are being very naive would you if the boot was on the other foot reimburse them.
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It's not my horse. Clearly you've had issues in the past with situations like this but don't take it out on me.
 
I'm afraid it falls under tough luck. By all accounts an agreement was made for the buyer to pay for the horse for an agreed amount of money per week/month. The fact the horse has incurred a huge amount of vet bills is just unfortunate and falls under sods law

The fact that the buyer hasn't paid the upstanding amount due by the agreed date means they have defaulted on the original agreement.

Therefore the seller has every right to take back their property and the buyer loses the money they've put in. That's what happens if you default on an agreement

The same happens with repossession of goods in any sphere if you default - the fact the goods might be damaged is neither here nor there - it gets repossessed and you lose your money and item

If the buyer doesn't want to lose the money she has invested in the Horse, then she needs to drum up the remaining amount outstanding and buy him asap
 
Thriller said:
It's not my horse. Clearly you've had issues in the past with situations like this but don't take it out on me.
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Excuse me where did that come from how rude!

How was I taking it out on you.' Friend' or who ever they are ,you seem to be taking it very personally. How far behind are they ? Has the seller had to always chase for payment? Has the'Friend'put an alternative plan to the seller that they would stick to. These are all question I would evaluate if I was in the sellers position!!
Sometimes life is not fair and as much as I will do to help young riders who help themselves I and others are not registered charities

For your information and really it is none of your business I have not had problems in the past with these situations, however I am careful enough to make sure a watertight agreement was drawn up that protected both sides in the event things went wrong. There are clear boundaries in the contract and everybody knows what can happen when things go wrong . Do you suggest I dont do it and stop young riders getting the horses they need . At the time I also make it very clear that I am sympathetic and flexible as long as they come to me before them missing a payment becomes an issue.
 
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Thriller said:
No one said she should. Just longer to pay would be nice. Gooosh.
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And meantime what is the vendor supposed to do? They may well be being put into a position of having to go into debt themselves because of money owed to them. If your OP was correct, they have already had *years* to pay off this debt. However much did this horse cost?
 
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