Legally where do I stand?

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Kelly123

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Years ago a family member (FM) bought me a horse as a gift and trouble has started between us.

Who does the horse legally belong to? I have original passport, FM has a replacement.

Kelly
 
Whoever has the last known Bill Of Sale (purchase receipt) is generally regarded as the owner. Or if no BoS, is there a signed contract stating horse is gifted to you and you hold sole ownership?
 
I kept horse for the first year then we moved him and FM keeps him on their land. I do have a recent text message off FM that says ''blah blah blah your horse XXXX''.

No i stupidly never sent off for my name to be put on (neither has the previous owner). I have printed off a form to post off to have my name put on now but not sure if it's too late?
 
tbh if he keeps the horse I think he'll probably have the upper hand. If its your horse why does he keep it?
 
Spring Feather said:
Whoever has the last known Bill Of Sale (purchase receipt) is generally regarded as the owner. Or if no BoS, is there a signed contract stating horse is gifted to you and you hold sole ownership?
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It was years ago, i dont think family member would still have BOS even if there were one.

No contract.

I was told that in the eyes of the law, you can not take back a gift. Is this true?
 
I was told that in the eyes of the law, you can not take back a gift. Is this true?

Yes it is but proving it was a gift in the first place is the issue


A case for Judge Judy me thinks :D
 
JohnyFromDonny said:
You would not generally have a contract in the case of a gift. Contracts are formed where there is an intent to create a business transaction.

Gifts are however recognised under the law. Once an item has been gifted, ownership has changed to the receiver of the gift. You might want to think about what evidence you have that the horse was gifted to you. For example, was the horse transferred to a location close to your home at the time? Have you been taking care of the horse since it was given to you? These things would be evidence of the gift taking place.
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No contract. The horse was originally dropped off by previous owner at my address (although this was several years ago now). I still have previous owner's contact number but not sure they would help.

I took care of the horse for about 1 year at my house when first got him then took over to FM's land to let my grazing rest. I was then threatened not to come on the land again as we had fallen out.
 
Sounds to me like you had it very convenient with letting someone else do all the caring for horse etc. TBH as you have no evidence of the gift, you haven' cared for the horse for it sounds like several years and you haven't got possession, I'd write this one off!
 
Kelly123 said:
It was years ago, i dont think family member would still have BOS even if there were one.

No contract.

I was told that in the eyes of the law, you can not take back a gift. Is this true?
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Maybe they won't have kept the original BoS. I have every receipt for every horses I've ever owned. Even for horses I've sold on, I still keep them.

Again, I've gifted a number of horses to people over the years and have always had a contract stating transfer of ownership so everyone knows where they stand.

Gifting is a very difficult thing to prove where horses are concerned. Contracts or any written statement saying the horse has been gifted is good proof. Always always have a contract when changing ownership/loaning/sharing horses!! It could save your bacon one day ;)
 
Hard one to prove, if I were a judge I would be leaning towards the FM at the moment, sounds a bit dodgy to me.

I am not doubting you, just saying how it would look! X
 
So you had the horse for a year then the horse went to FM and you fell out? When? Almost immediately? Or just recently? Who was doing the day to day caring for the horse? When did you last care for the horse? If it's been a few years then I expect that the law would side with FM.
 
I have had recent communication off FM, I have one recent text message that tells me they are having monitary worries can i have a ''think about what to do with my horse XXX''

Before and after I have had telephone conversations with FM saying they would drop XXX back at mine on a date last week. We then since fell out via telephone over something else and hence XXX never turned up. Tried ringing FM - no answer.
 
Do you have any indirect evidence as to why fm would have made this gift likely? Eg fm inherited a large sum just prior to the gift & gifted things of similar value to others or proof of something you did for fm prior to purchase? Not saying if you do it would prove anything, but it could swing things in your favour.
 
littlelegs said:
Do you have any indirect evidence as to why fm would have made this gift likely? Eg fm inherited a large sum just prior to the gift & gifted things of similar value to others or proof of something you did for fm prior to purchase? Not saying if you do it would prove anything, but it could swing things in your favour.
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They bought a sibling of mine something around the same value.

Horse was a Birthday gift although he didn't arrive in the same month as my B'day.
 
Spring Feather said:
Is FM saying you cannot have the horse back or just that FM won't deliver the horse to you. Why not make arrangements to collect the horse yourself?
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How can i make arrangements with FM when they will not speak to me?

Have not heard off FM since we last had an argument about something else.
 
Can you get a third party to make arrangements on your behalf? If not post a letter by recorded delivery to state when you'd like to collect him. If that fails then proper legal advice
 
littlelegs said:
Can you get a third party to make arrangements on your behalf? If not post a letter by recorded delivery to state when you'd like to collect him. If that fails then proper legal advice
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Can i turn up and get him? or would i be done for 'stealing' or 'trespassing' ?
 
Hmmmm... let me see. Someone bought a horse 'years ago' and said you could have it. You kept said horse for one year, then passed it's keep over to the original purchaser who also happened to keep it insured in their name for 'years and years'. And you can only dredge up 1 vets bill after all the years the horse has been owned. Seems clear cut to me. It's their horse. You effectively just 'loaned' it for a year albeit without a contract.

It would be completely different story if you'd been paying the full up keep of the horse since it was 'gifted' to you and the 'giver' had had nothing to do with the horse's up keep since the day they 'gave' it to you - so you'd have the reciepts and proof that you'd been solely responsible for 'your' horse all these years. But it seems you haven't and you can't. I be pretty hacked off to be paying the costs for someone else's horse for years and then have them ask for it back. Particularly if I'd bought the horse in the first place.
 
Spyda said:
Hmmmm... let me see. Someone bought a horse 'years ago' and said you could have it. You kept said horse for one year, then passed it's keep over to the original purchaser who also happened to keep it insured in their name for 'years and years'. And you can only dredge up 1 vets bill after all the years the horse has been owned. Seems clear cut to me. It's their horse. You effectively just 'loaned' it for a year albeit without a contract.

I did not 'pass it over' - i went there each evening to see to him. It was insured for me to ride it. FM doesn't ride. If I ''loaned'' it, why can i not get him back?!

It would be completely different story if you'd been paying the full up keep of the horse since it was 'gifted' to you and the 'giver' had had nothing to do with the horse's up keep since the day they 'gave' it to you - so you'd have the reciepts and proof that you'd been solely responsible for 'your' horse all these years. But it seems you haven't and you can't. I be pretty hacked off to be paying the costs for someone else's horse for years and then have them ask for it back. Particularly if I'd bought the horse in the first place.
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I have been seeing to the horse for the last 18 months since we were back on speaking terms. I was threatened before then not to come. I did not actually ask to have it back, they told me I was having it back which i accepted.
 
Spyda said:
Hmmmm... let me see. Someone bought a horse 'years ago' and said you could have it. You kept said horse for one year, then passed it's keep over to the original purchaser who also happened to keep it insured in their name for 'years and years'. And you can only dredge up 1 vets bill after all the years the horse has been owned. Seems clear cut to me. It's their horse. You effectively just 'loaned' it for a year albeit without a contract.

It would be completely different story if you'd been paying the full up keep of the horse since it was 'gifted' to you and the 'giver' had had nothing to do with the horse's up keep since the day they 'gave' it to you - so you'd have the reciepts and proof that you'd been solely responsible for 'your' horse all these years. But it seems you haven't and you can't. I be pretty hacked off to be paying the costs for someone else's horse for years and then have them ask for it back. Particularly if I'd bought the horse in the first place.
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This is how it comes across, also you make no mention of any concern or feelings you may have for this horse, you may be trying to not put much in your posts but it does seem more like an item you are trying to recover than an animal you are fond of.
 
I think if you just turn up & take him there could well be legal implications. However I have a feeling that if you word the letter correctly stating 'unless you object in writing I will be collecting x in 14 days at such a time' & fm signs for the letter, then fms lack of objection can be taken as acceptance of your terms, therefore turning up at the specified time, with an independent witness & taking the horse would not class as stealing. But please don't do this off my advice, check with an expert in this area first.
 
If this person has bought you a lovely gift like this, and paid for the insurance and kept the horse on their premises, would it not be a good idea to try to mend bridges, they sound like they are very generous people?????
 
MY ADVICE

If the horse is being well cared for then treat this as a 'life experience' and move on.

You will always have the knowledge that you were morally right even if the legal side was stacked against you.
 
ROG said:
MY ADVICE

If the horse is being well cared for then treat this as a 'life experience' and move on.

You will always have the knowledge that you were morally right even if the legal side was stacked against you.
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Horse will be sold on.

Maybe you are right, move on. Thanks.
 
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