LeMieux in trouble with the ASA

[asmp]

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/lemieux-ltd-a22-1144699-lemieux-ltd.html

To be fair though, it‘s not their product!

 

[BeansNsausages]

I mean, I'm not offended by it, but they still chose to put it on the packaging.

I know everyone is in love with Lemieux but I've been sceptical of them since the whole dog hair from China thing.

 

[HashRouge]

The manufacturer said that “slut” was a term commonly used by horse trainers to refer to a problem filly.

Is it??!
I must have been living under a rock, because I've been around horses for 25 years and worked with them professionally, and I've never heard that...

 

[little_critter]

My friend feeds slut mix, I agree, it’s not a nice name. And I don’t feel it’s any ‘better’ that they are referring to a horse as a slut rather than a woman.

 

[Red-1]

What a strange name to give a product.

I work in a primary school and would not use that word at school, nor the T word, or the word of a female dog at school as a descriptor.

Maybe that would be a good test of a name, weather you would teach the word to a primary aged child?

 

[OldNag]

I agree, I think the word is inappropriate.
Not a fan of LeMieux anyway since they copied Crafty Ponies.
I appreciate they don't make this supplement, but they chose to stock it

 

[Meowy Catkin]

There is a problem in the horse world with sexism towards mares. I wouldn't buy the product based on the name. Too many people have been sexist towards my own mares (especially the chestnut one) for me to have any doubts that they are wrong about their claim that calling horses that is OK.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I don't think that it's a nice name for a product as it's just not a nice word to say - it's unecessary to advertise a product based solely on it having a 'swear word' in it's name, however the word 'offensive' or 'offended' riles me up. If you don't like it, just buy something else or stop looking at it.
Horses aren't and can't be offended, it is a horse product and I think to suggest there is sexism against mares is a bit ridiculous.

 

[milliepops]

i have always thought it's a stupid name for a product. Horse health have been selling it for years.
I don't find it offensive but it's just not a helpful way to think about your mares.

 

[Keith_Beef]

What a strange name to give a product.

I work in a primary school and would not use that word at school, nor the T word, or the word of a female dog at school as a descriptor.

Maybe that would be a good test of a name, weather you would teach the word to a primary aged child?

I had no qualms about teaching my kids that a female canine is called a bitch, or that a male fowl is called a cock.

But I also made sure that they understood that if they wanted to use these words, then it should always be in the context of animals and to be very careful of using them around Americans.

I have to be very careful when writing to my female French friends, because I often miss out the letter "a" of the word "salut".

 

[MagicMelon]

I had no qualms about teaching my kids that a female canine is called a bitch, or that a male fowl is called a cock.

But I also made sure that they understood that if they wanted to use these words, then it should always be in the context of animals and to be very careful of using them around Americans.

I have to be very careful when writing to my female French friends, because I often miss out the letter "a" of the word "salut".

Same, my kids know bitch and cock and in what context to use them (ie. animal and not swearing)! My 9yo son has actually asked me what "slut" means, he even asked me what a "wh*re" was the other day though so Id suggest that the word slut is the least of our worries with what other kids say at school! I do think the word shouldnt have been used in a product, seems weird and memorable for the wrong reasons. I dont think its helpful to think of our mares as sluts personally. Why are they sluts? Just because they're female?

Out of interest why do you have to be careful using them round only Americans? Bitch would be considered a swear word in the UK too, and cock! Ive never heard Americans use cock as a swear word?

 

[Keith_Beef]

Out of interest why do you have to be careful using them round only Americans? Bitch would be considered a swear word in the UK too, and cock! Ive never heard Americans use cock as a swear word?

I was discussing with a colleague in the US about what we'd done over the window. I mentioned that a friend had called in on Sunday afternoon with his wife and their bitch. The colleague was somewhat taken aback by this, so I added "she's a golden retriever" and the confusion evaporated.

I referred to somebody "strutting around like a cock", and the person I was talking to was perplexed... and eventually realised that I meant "strutting around like a rooster".

My kids told me that a schoolmate had been punished for "using the S word and the F word"...

Spoiler

the schoolmate had apparently said that someone was "stupid" and "fat".

 

[dogatemysalad]

I wouldn't buy a product that used derogatory terms for animals. My horses deserve my respect.

 

[The Jokers Girl]

I'd never heard of this product, nor commonly heard filly's referred to as Sluts so googled, couldnt find anything. But what i did find was that although this product label is now called mare mix on LeMeiux website its still under its original name on all other stockists sites. Whilst I agree it inappropriate to use the derogatory term for animal feed /supplements (and any other product name) don't understand why LeMeiux took the rap on the knuckles, and not the manufacture and other stockists.

Did the complainant have issue with LeMeiux rather than the product name, as surely you'd take it up with the manufacturer?

 

[Shilasdair]

The way we manage stallions and mares in the equine industry is oddly misogynistic in itself.
Stallions have to be stabled on their own, or turned out in paddocks with very high fences.
And we must be very careful not to upset them by having mares anywhere near them.

Mares are also entire with all the hormones, and an equally strong desire to breed - but they are expected to get on with it, and behave like geldings. If they don't they are 'mare-ish'.
It's a throwback to the days when men couldn't be expected to control their urges if a woman wore the wrong clothes.

 

[milliepops]

Mares are also entire with all the hormones, and an equally strong desire to breed - but they are expected to get on with it, and behave like geldings. If they don't they are 'mare-ish'.

i so agree with this.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

The way we manage stallions and mares in the equine industry is oddly misogynistic in itself.
Stallions have to be stabled on their own, or turned out in paddocks with very high fences.
And we must be very careful not to upset them by having mares anywhere near them.

Mares are also entire with all the hormones, and an equally strong desire to breed - but they are expected to get on with it, and behave like geldings. If they don't they are 'mare-ish'.
It's a throwback to the days when men couldn't be expected to control their urges if a woman wore the wrong clothes.

I don't disagree completely with what you're saying, but it's two different situations entirely which dictate how they are kept. There is one stallion to multiple mares, you wouldn't get mares fighting to the death over a stallion whereas vice versa you quite possibly could, so it's more important to keep the stallion contained; it also makes sense because there are less of them and the mare is only intermittently intent on being bred whereas with stallions it's 24/7. It's the same in cows, sheep, piga, alpacas etc etc etc. Is it sexism? Or just how the world of breeding animals works?

 

[milliepops]

there are stallions and stallions though. i've no doubt some are raving sex maniacs but i know a good few people who keep them like "normal horses" without a problem, obv a few considerations but they are perfectly able to live with company and enjoy normal horse behaviours.
I occasionally meet someone else who is clearly terrified of her stallion and it's her that makes him a menace. He doesn't get turnout or contact with other horses and unsurprisingly he's a touch unreasonable as a result.

i guess what i took from shils' comment is that people make the necessary arrangements to keep a stallion, if they want to keep one. and expect to have to do so. but lots of people get frustrated with their mares who have to fit in with the standard paint-by-numbers offering on your average livery yard despite possibly also having their own needs and challenges.

 

[YorksG]

It's interesting that a mare, who maybe has hormonal problems, is called a slut for showing that she is female.
I find the word offensive whatever species it is used about. I have been involved with leisure horses for over 50 years and it is not a term that I have come across.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

there are stallions and stallions though. i've no doubt some are raving sex maniacs but i know a good few people who keep them like "normal horses" without a problem, obv a few considerations but they are perfectly able to live with company and enjoy normal horse behaviours.
I occasionally meet someone else who is clearly terrified of her stallion and it's her that makes him a menace. He doesn't get turnout or contact with other horses and unsurprisingly he's a touch unreasonable as a result.

i guess what i took from shils' comment is that people make the necessary arrangements to keep a stallion, if they want to keep one. and expect to have to do so. but lots of people get frustrated with their mares who have to fit in with the standard paint-by-numbers offering on your average livery yard despite possibly also having their own needs and challenges.

I agree with you when you phrase it like this. I think there are many more factors into how different sexes of animals are kept than 'sexism' but people do often forget that mares are entire.
However, buy a stallion and don't want to deal with it's entireness then you chop his nuts off, buy a mare and don't want to deal with her entireness then you try supplements initially. I think if we are really scrutinising which treatment would be considered more 'fair' it would quite possible be the latter.

 

[milliepops]

I've mentioned before that i have ethical issues with the concept of gelding in general but it was misunderstood i currently have 2 geldings, i thoroughly understand the practicality and if my mare had foaled a colt i'd have done the same. to me it feels like another liberty man takes with animals, that's all.

but i think, if you aren't prepared to deal with the entireness of a mare, don't buy one, because supps might help take the edge off but they don't make them dead inside

 

[NinjaPony]

That name is another example of humans projecting their own patriarchal/misogynist values onto animals by quite literally slut shaming mares, which is astonishing as a marketing tactic.

See also, “why is your gelding in pink! Won’t he be embarrassed!!”, as if horses have any concept of gender stereotypes and associated societal norms. Which is what I used to say to people who said that to me when I went out in my bright pink matchy set on my grey gelding.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I can count on one hand the amount of times a mare or Filly has been called a slut in 18 years in racing. And when it has it's usually a young one having her first couple of seasons who is literally wetting itself walking up the road next to the geldings until she matures enough to control herself a little better.

And this is coming from an industry that is known for being incredibly rude and crass at times.

 

[Kaylum]

The term "she is such a flirt" really gets to me as well. No she is being natural she cannot control her hormones.

 

[Shilasdair]

I don't disagree completely with what you're saying, but it's two different situations entirely which dictate how they are kept. There is one stallion to multiple mares, you wouldn't get mares fighting to the death over a stallion whereas vice versa you quite possibly could, so it's more important to keep the stallion contained; it also makes sense because there are less of them and the mare is only intermittently intent on being bred whereas with stallions it's 24/7. It's the same in cows, sheep, piga, alpacas etc etc etc. Is it sexism? Or just how the world of breeding animals works?

If you wish to replicate feral horse behaviour (which some aspects of your post suggests) then stallions/colts can get along very nicely indeed in bachelor herds.
So why do we turn them out alone?
And both mares and stallions have a breeding cycle that is largely controlled by day length - so stallions are not '24/7' but have peaks and troughs in their hormones as mares do (for example anoestrous in the winter). Here in the UK, hormone activity seems to peak in April/May.

 

[Arzada]

It's interesting that a mare, who maybe has hormonal problems, is called a slut for showing that she is female.
I find the word offensive whatever species it is used about. I have been involved with leisure horses for over 50 years and it is not a term that I have come across.

Unfortunately 'slut' is occasionally used on this forum when an owner is describing their in season mare. Who, IMHO, they don't deserve to own if they can't be kinder.

 

[Arzada]

The way we manage stallions and mares in the equine industry is oddly misogynistic in itself.
Stallions have to be stabled on their own, or turned out in paddocks with very high fences.
And we must be very careful not to upset them by having mares anywhere near them.

Mares are also entire with all the hormones, and an equally strong desire to breed - but they are expected to get on with it, and behave like geldings. If they don't they are 'mare-ish'.
It's a throwback to the days when men couldn't be expected to control their urges if a woman wore the wrong clothes.

Superb post.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

If you wish to replicate feral horse behaviour (which some aspects of your post suggests) then stallions/colts can get along very nicely indeed in bachelor herds.
So why do we turn them out alone?
And both mares and stallions have a breeding cycle that is largely controlled by day length - so stallions are not '24/7' but have peaks and troughs in their hormones as mares do (for example anoestrous in the winter). Here in the UK, hormone activity seems to peak in April/May.

My understanding, and I won't claim to be anywhere near an expert on it, is that the fluctuation in stallion hormonally is much much smaller than that of a mare, and they generally speaking they will be open to mating near on any time if there is a mare in season presented - the basis of AI collection.

They absolutely can get along nicely in bachelor herds, but should you walk an in season mare past the bachelor herd to get to her field or on a hack it will kick off terribly, whereas should you walk a stallion near mares there will be interest but likely no fighting in any real ernest. In my experience anyway

 

[The Irish Draft 2022]

In my opinion it’s offensive term for mare it also not a common term in equestrian world. Most mare haters use their term people forget that a gelding is not natural they would be a lot difficult if they had their hormones and a lot more difficult.

 

[Wishfilly]

My understanding, and I won't claim to be anywhere near an expert on it, is that the fluctuation in stallion hormonally is much much smaller than that of a mare, and they generally speaking they will be open to mating near on any time if there is a mare in season presented - the basis of AI collection.

They absolutely can get along nicely in bachelor herds, but should you walk an in season mare past the bachelor herd to get to her field or on a hack it will kick off terribly, whereas should you walk a stallion near mares there will be interest but likely no fighting in any real ernest. In my experience anyway

Pure anecdata, but I know a few people who have kept stallions with each other or with geldings as company and not had any issues. For one of these people at least, there were mares around on the property and whilst the stallions/colts would be kept somewhat separately from the mares, they wouldn't have no exposure to in season mares. FWIW, the stallions never attempted to jump out to get to the mares either, but on one occasion, a pony mare did manage to get in with one of the stallions!

In the studies on American Mustangs, so effectively wild horses, they have found "bands" with more than one stallion present- I know some people don't like alpha/beta used in relation to horses, but I've seen studies that describe the band as having an alpha and a beta stallion- which also makes sense in relation to what I've seen with colts or stallions kept in company. As long as one is willing to be more submissive, they can get along very well!

Some of the studies I've read have also suggested that wild mares aren't as passive as once believed in terms of their mate choice- i.e. it's not just the case that the stallions fight and the winner gets the preferred mares by default, and some mares will actively refuse some stallions, or leave the band if they don't like (probably not quite the right word!) the current stallion.

I think, done correctly, a lot of stallions benefit from stable male company, and there's less risk of fighting involved than in e.g. unstable mixed herds which you find on lots of livery yards.

Not at all relevant to the thread, but I just think the UK especially has an odd attitude to stallions at times.