Let him or fight him?

[Olliepoppy]

Hi, the fields around my house have just been combined so me and my 6 year old cob have been out in them 3 times so far. Each time I take him into a field at some point in it when I ask him to change direction he will circle the opposite way. This is done calmly as if to say 'but I want to go this way..' He does not listen to the leg very well yet (we are working on this in schooling) so I either have to let him circle then push him on the direction I want to go or try fighting him by not allowing him to turn his head. My question is which way is best? Do I let him turn his circle then keep going the way I want to go or try really hard not to let him turn? Not letting him turn means I end up hauling on his mouth to get him to go the way I want which I don't like. Any advice appreciated. Thanks.

 

[JillA]

I would let him circle - and then do it several more times so it costs him more effort than he had bargained for, and do smallish circles that are harder work for him. He'll soon realise it has backfired on him but you won't have that fight on your hands - he will be careful what he wishes for!!

 

[Olliepoppy]

Haha! Ye I'd kind of thought that, just wasnt sure if that was the right thing to do or not, we circled 4 times today before he went 'ok I give up'. Just don't want him doing that on the roads..

 

[JillA]

It will die out if you are consistent in doing it every time. My nappy rearer took about half a dozen before she learned it would cost her effort and she never ever tried again

 

[TheoryX1]

I do agree with giving him what he asks for, and making him work for it. I have a cob who used to nap, ie stop, stare at something and then go backwards, ignoring my legs and even a good old hard smack of the whip. He does know how to rein back, so I just asked him to do it, and kept on asking him to do it (obviously where it was safe to do so). He soon learned that it cost him far too much effort and even at 21 if he tries it, just the words, 'Back' do the trick and he soon starts moving forward.

Be consistent. Most cobs are inherently lazy (sorry other cob owners), and if it costs them too much effort, they soon learn to tow the line.

 

[Olliepoppy]

He doesn't know rein back yet but i will be consistent with the circles, I think he doesn't like the feeling of the stubble on his feet, he keeps stamping his back feet and stopping for an itch of his front ones so is deciding he wants to leave the field i will teach him rein back as he also likes to stop and stare at things and sometimes I can't get him going for love nor money lol

 

[cobden]

Has he got a lot of feather ? If so he might have mites-my friend has a mare with lots of feather and she stamps when they start itching ..

 

[Olliepoppy]

He's not heavy feathered and I don't think he's got mites as he only stamps in the stubbles

 

[meesha]

What worked for me was taking a crop and a smack on shoulder on the side he is incorrectly turning while asking with leg and hand for direction you want. They all have a stronger side and use it to their advantage

 

[Olliepoppy]

I've tried that and just get my crop tangled up in the reins and his mane which isn't very effective lol

 

[Tnavas]

Certainly don't let him circle the way he wants to go if you do you are teaching him to be naughty.

First invest in a bit with cheeks, such as a Fulmer, Full cheeked snaffle or D ring snaffle. These will all help with turning.
If you are having problems with his mane getting tangled with your reins and whip plait the mane in a running braid. Google 'Running Braid' for the instructions.
Learn how to use your whip properly, reins into one hand and use whip smartly behind your leg.

 

[JillA]

Certainly don't let him circle the way he wants to go if you do you are teaching him to be naughty.

That is absolutely not true - what you are teaching him by making him work is that being "naughty" (oh that word - horses don't do naughty) has consequences he hadn't anticipated and would rather not experience too often. Mark Rashid tells about a mare who insisted on veering off the side of the manege when being worked. Every time she did that he let her, then rode her in a full circle and returned to the track. She soon realised she was putting in a lot of effort to get to where she started and gave up the veering. Same with lots of horses I have worked on - the horse who ran back when approached by someone he shouldn't have taken a dislike to was backed up to the point he had second thoughts about it.
I also dislike the practice of recommending using a whip for a horse and rider you haven't seen or assessed - it can lead to rearing and bucking. There is a time and a place, sure, but this may not be either.

 

[Kylara]

Evasion can be fixed by letting them do the evasive behaviour and then getting them to continue doing it.

For example a horse that canters when you ask for more in trot/push on in trot.

Most people immediately get cross and bring it back to trot - the trot is now unbalanced and the horse gets to go around stuffy for another minute or so before being asked to push on again. This is easier for the horse than opening up and so is worth evading (breaking into canter).

How to respond to this:
If the horse breaks into canter then go with it and keep the canter. Canter around the school and then canter a big circle, then a smaller circle (depending on how balanced your horse is - no point asking for 10m circles or voltes if your horse is unbalanced.) and then when you are ready ask the horse to trot. Now push the trot on and if the horse breaks into canter repeat the canter work - keep the canter and do a few circles. The horse will quickly learn that evading by breaking to canter is much harder work than opening the trot out/pushing on in the trot.

This theory works with most evasive manouevres horses try - if horse circles left, then let horse circle left and keep horse circling left - ask for a smaller circle, ask for a trot circle (depending on space), ask for a turn on the forehand, then when you are ready go straight again. Horse will eventually realise that evading by circling is harder than doing what is asked.

Also recommend after circling ride the other way and ask horse to circle right and go up and down that stretch for a bit asking for left circles and right circles until horse circles the way you want him to

Remember with circles to put pressure on/off/on pressure with inside leg to ask for bend and to keep contact in outside rein and to open your inside hand out, not back. That way once horse starts turning/circling horse has somewhere to go and is rewarded by pressure relief when horse bends/turns that way

 

[Olliepoppy]

Thanks for all the constructive comments, it helps no end he always circles to the left and if I can catch him quick enough I can stop it happening but if not I will practice the 'more work' theory. In response to an earlier post I would rather not use a whip if there are other effective ways of training, I understand they have their uses but would hope to not have to use it often

 

[chestnut cob]

To add to the comments above, if you know he's going to do it then you need to be more prepared. Make sure you have a contact on the left rein and your left leg on to stop him from swinging that way. I also wonder whether, as you mention you struggle with getting the reins, whip, mane etc caught up, maybe it's worth asking your riding instructor to go on a hack with you once to see how they think you should deal with this napping issue? Or ask to work on it in the school in your next lesson - you can work on circles and turning correctly while making sure you are holding the reins properly and not getting in a tangle. Also agree about plaiting the mane out of the way.

 

[Tnavas]

That is absolutely not true - what you are teaching him by making him work is that being "naughty" (oh that word - horses don't do naughty) has consequences he hadn't anticipated and would rather not experience too often. Mark Rashid tells about a mare who insisted on veering off the side of the manege when being worked. Every time she did that he let her, then rode her in a full circle and returned to the track. She soon realised she was putting in a lot of effort to get to where she started and gave up the veering. Same with lots of horses I have worked on - the horse who ran back when approached by someone he shouldn't have taken a dislike to was backed up to the point he had second thoughts about it.
I also dislike the practice of recommending using a whip for a horse and rider you haven't seen or assessed - it can lead to rearing and bucking. There is a time and a place, sure, but this may not be either.

I think after 40+ years of working with problem horses I know what I'm talking about.

 

[MarniL]

I'm having the same issue with one of the mares I ride and have quickly found that it's impossible to stop her turning if she's determined to ignore me. If I try and fight her it just ends up with both of us hugely frustrated. I agree with letting the horse think it's won and then making them work until they think otherwise.

Tnavas, surely after 40+ years of working with problem horses you know that every horse is different and will respond differently to certain methods.

 

[Olliepoppy]

Since starting this post I've been following the 'work more' advice and it seems to be working! He circled in all 4 fields to start with, today he only did it in one! I'm also more aware of when he is 'thinking about it' so have managed to successfully steer out a couple Thanks especially to jillA and kylara

Chestnutcob I only got in a tangle when trying to use the whip on his neck, I do know how to hold the reins properly honest I use a schooling whip during lessons and got caught out with having a much shorter one on the hack. Every days a school day lol.

 

[JillA]

I think after 40+ years of working with problem horses I know what I'm talking about.

I'll trump your 40 with 50 Length of service unfortunately doesn't always = quality

 

[Tnavas]

I'll trump your 40 with 50 Length of service unfortunately doesn't always = quality

I've certainly had my success. More often than not this argument is a case of rider not being assertive and horse knowing it. I remember being there, with a pony called Star. Luckily my instructor turned up and worked us through the problem. I often deal with this type of problem with kids at pony club. Most of the time it's because they don't plan how to deal with the problem, think ahead, look around to where you plan to be, think positive and it usually. Happens.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

I've certainly had my success. More often than not this argument is a case of rider not being assertive and horse knowing it. I remember being there, with a pony called Star. Luckily my instructor turned up and worked us through the problem. I often deal with this type of problem with kids at pony club. Most of the time it's because they don't plan how to deal with the problem, think ahead, look around to where you plan to be, think positive and it usually. Happens.

Could not agree more !! I had a very nappy cob a number of years ago, and he always spun off to the left if there was anything he didn't like. We solved it easily by me being ready for him, ands carrying the whip in my left hand helped also, and riding forward strongly into a soft but ready hand. Riding a horse forward between your hand and leg and being in charge is the best way to deal with any issues. Horses need a gentle but assertive leader.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

That is absolutely not true - what you are teaching him by making him work is that being "naughty" (oh that word - horses don't do naughty) has consequences he hadn't anticipated and would rather not experience too often. Mark Rashid tells about a mare who insisted on veering off the side of the manege when being worked. Every time she did that he let her, then rode her in a full circle and returned to the track. She soon realised she was putting in a lot of effort to get to where she started and gave up the veering. Same with lots of horses I have worked on - the horse who ran back when approached by someone he shouldn't have taken a dislike to was backed up to the point he had second thoughts about it.
I also dislike the practice of recommending using a whip for a horse and rider you haven't seen or assessed - it can lead to rearing and bucking. There is a time and a place, sure, but this may not be either.

JillA the other ideas are just as valid as yours, think your comments are a bit much really. This is a free forum and advice has been requested. Tnavas's ideas actually worked very well for a cob of mine - you are not in a position to say whether her methods are right or not. The most important thing is to treat the horse as an individual and have a range of methods at your disposal. Knowing when to use which method needs experience. You cannot know that Tnavas's method would not be the most appropriate here, any more than you can advice not to use a whip on a horse that has not been assessed.

 

[JillA]

JillA the other ideas are just as valid as yours, think your comments are a bit much really. This is a free forum and advice has been requested. Tnavas's ideas actually worked very well for a cob of mine - you are not in a position to say whether her methods are right or not. The most important thing is to treat the horse as an individual and have a range of methods at your disposal. Knowing when to use which method needs experience. You cannot know that Tnavas's method would not be the most appropriate here, any more than you can advice not to use a whip on a horse that has not been assessed.

It isn't an idea, it's a statement of fact. The inference from Tnavas was that the method I had suggested was wrong - and that hers was right. So why all of a sudden am I the villain here? The OP has acknowledged that my methods were working, and I wasn't suggesting using a whip to someone whose riding I hadn't seen and whose level of experience I knew nothing about? Tnavas was and it could so easily end in tears.
I would NEVER EVER use a whip in that way - it was as though she was suggesting strong and hard, not just backing up the leg which is the only use of a whip most of us would condone. If you are happy using a whip in that way, that is your choice, but bear in mind lots of people read posts on this forum and do not have the experience or knowledge to know when and how to use a whip without being cruel. She may not have meant it that way but that is how it read.
I have bred and broken more horses than most, and used "traditional" methods until I came across a horse who forced me to re-think, for whom coercion just did not work except to make him more and more resentful. My experience and advice is based on having been there, done that, and knowing there is a kinder, less confrontational and often more reliable way - and is every bit as worth while as anyone else's.
I don't want to get into an argument about it but my advice was based on experience, not just theory, and studying some of the greatest horse people in the world today.

 

[Tnavas]

Certainly don't let him circle the way he wants to go if you do you are teaching him to be naughty.

First invest in a bit with cheeks, such as a Fulmer, Full cheeked snaffle or D ring snaffle. These will all help with turning.
If you are having problems with his mane getting tangled with your reins and whip plait the mane in a running braid. Google 'Running Braid' for the instructions.
Learn how to use your whip properly, reins into one hand and use whip smartly behind your leg.

Well I have just re read my post and I'm not sure JillA where you are getting the idea that I'm about to beat the living day lights out of the horse.

I've said learn to use the correctly, - BEHIND THE LEG - and SMARTLY - not a pathetic little tap that many people do. Most will try to use the whip on the shoulder or hang on to the rein at the same time as trying to use the whip behind their leg.

There are many ways of dealing with problems and the majority of people that I have worked with are not positive enough in their aids and their expectations of their horses.

They get to the point of napping before they even think of doing anything, if you plan ahead you get results.

 

[Woolybear]

Blimey! this all got a bit 'my dad is bigger than your dad' didn't it? I guess I've learned there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes with horses, what works for some will not work for others, so there is never a 'textbook' way of dealing with anything. I start with an end result in mind of what I want to achieve and how I get there is organic based on the nature of that individual always with the principle that we WILL achieve that goal, how long it takes and how many steps we go back before we go forwards can vary. The game plan is always that the horse will always choose to co-operate, not admit defeat.

What I will always advocate is going back to basics. If a horse (at 6) doesn't know basic commands like how to rein back, then get off and re teach it from the ground up. They should be willing and push-button, to voice commands before we combine these with other aids and if someone has by-passed that in their early education then fill in those blanks. Having a horse respect and listen on the ground can often avert later problems in the saddle. I would also (if its occurring in the same place in the field, take the horse in the field, in hand for an explore, and a good sniff at everything, just to rule out any sources that could unsettle and also check if he's as evasive in hand as ridden, don't always assume a horse is just being a brat, ask first if there is a rational reason)

 

[H0RS3]

I would let him circle - and then do it several more times so it costs him more effort than he had bargained for, and do smallish circles that are harder work for him. He'll soon realise it has backfired on him but you won't have that fight on your hands - he will be careful what he wishes for!!

+1 to this, just keep at it and he'll get the message eventually

 

[Olliepoppy]

Blimey! this all got a bit 'my dad is bigger than your dad' didn't it? I guess I've learned there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes with horses, what works for some will not work for others, so there is never a 'textbook' way of dealing with anything. I start with an end result in mind of what I want to achieve and how I get there is organic based on the nature of that individual always with the principle that we WILL achieve that goal, how long it takes and how many steps we go back before we go forwards can vary. The game plan is always that the horse will always choose to co-operate, not admit defeat.

What I will always advocate is going back to basics. If a horse (at 6) doesn't know basic commands like how to rein back, then get off and re teach it from the ground up. They should be willing and push-button, to voice commands before we combine these with other aids and if someone has by-passed that in their early education then fill in those blanks. Having a horse respect and listen on the ground can often avert later problems in the saddle. I would also (if its occurring in the same place in the field, take the horse in the field, in hand for an explore, and a good sniff at everything, just to rule out any sources that could unsettle and also check if he's as evasive in hand as ridden, don't always assume a horse is just being a brat, ask first if there is a rational reason)

I think his reason is because it annoys his feet! He stops to itch his front ones and stamps his back ones. There are always barley heads to pick out of his feathers when we get back. It never happens at the same place in the field and he is improving. He is certainly not overly willing or push-button, he can be downright 'yeh.. whatever...' We are doing ground work as well as hacking and I'm hoping in time it will all come together. As I have only had him for 4 months I am still finding out where the gaps in his knowledge are and am doing my best to fill them in! He is a bit opinionated and I'm finding that although you need to be fairly firm with him if you put too much pressure on him he just has a total hissy fit so there seems to be a fine line between teaching him and peeing him off!

 

[Shilasdair]

Well I have just re read my post and I'm not sure JillA where you are getting the idea that I'm about to beat the living day lights out of the horse.

I've said learn to use the correctly, - BEHIND THE LEG - and SMARTLY - not a pathetic little tap that many people do. Most will try to use the whip on the shoulder or hang on to the rein at the same time as trying to use the whip behind their leg.

There are many ways of dealing with problems and the majority of people that I have worked with are not positive enough in their aids and their expectations of their horses.

They get to the point of napping before they even think of doing anything, if you plan ahead you get results.

I'm curious - which leg should the rider use the whip behind, and why?

 

[Kylara]

I'm curious - which leg should the rider use the whip behind, and why?

What is meant is:

Take hand with whip in off reins (reins into one hand)

Move hand with whip backwards and use just behind your leg to back up what your leg is saying.

Lots of people try and keep their hands on the reins with a short whip and use the whip behind the leg at the same time (pulls the rein with whip hand which isn't good) or they smack the shoulder, which isn't particularly effective except in certain rare circumstances. So as Tnavas said, people need to learn how to use their whips correctly.

I always teach people (often heel naggers) that you squeeze with the heel, if ignored, then bigger nudge/kick, if ignored then smart tap behind the leg with stick. This way means that your leg aids are backed up and they should start to respond to the squeeze and the nudge better so that the stick is used less. Lots of transitions up and down also help make them more responsive to the leg.

 

[Shilasdair]

What is meant is:

Take hand with whip in off reins (reins into one hand)

Move hand with whip backwards and use just behind your leg to back up what your leg is saying.

Lots of people try and keep their hands on the reins with a short whip and use the whip behind the leg at the same time (pulls the rein with whip hand which isn't good) or they smack the shoulder, which isn't particularly effective except in certain rare circumstances. So as Tnavas said, people need to learn how to use their whips correctly.

I always teach people (often heel naggers) that you squeeze with the heel, if ignored, then bigger nudge/kick, if ignored then smart tap behind the leg with stick. This way means that your leg aids are backed up and they should start to respond to the squeeze and the nudge better so that the stick is used less. Lots of transitions up and down also help make them more responsive to the leg.

Thanks for the explanation that you can hit a horse with a short whip by holding the rein in one hand.
I can tell we haven't 'met' before.
I repeat my question - which leg should the OP use the whip behind, and why? Some reference to equitation theory would be acceptable here.
S