lethargic 4yr old

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lynnandbella

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my 4 yr old irish draught cross is soooo lethargic im wondering what to do, she is quite podgy and on full turn out with only a small feed after work. im aware that its hot so wait until after 7pm before trying any form of exercize , she really doesnt need feeding up as theres a good lot of grass at the moment and her field mate is extremely full of energy, do i try and strip graze her to get her weight down? she wont go above walk on the lunge, and only a small amount of trot when ridden. The mare she is kept next too is very lively, bucking and full of energy when ridden.
 
lungeing i can jump up and down crack the whip shout and get the 'silly human' look! riding we can get trot for a while but not long, she seems fine breathing etc we went barefoot 2 weeks ago, she wears hoof boots forroad work but nohing schooing, not footy or lame, just not wanting to work, i try something different everytime to make it interesting but shes not bothered. shes a lovely natured horse, never barges kicks or bits, only ever bucked once when i was backing her
 
we lunged a fair bit last year on and off, she was ace , very responsive , my instructor had a go at lungeing her last week and she was fine (although it was warm and we only done 10min tops) , we always walk the circles together first then i slowly walk away and she usually keeps going but not lately. Riding we also go back to the beginning when we get 'stuck' , i am very patient with her , shes been a little superstar until now, we've had the napping stage and came through that, just dont like seeing her so vacant , maybe i'll try a few days off see if she just wants a rest, i have a lesson tomorrow, i'll see what my instructor says. i really wanted to get to our first little show in august but dont want to push her.
 
Just lost a long reply, and have to go out now.

Selenium deficiency?

Videos of my gang with reluctance to work:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73446118/Rock walk movie - for email.mp4

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73446118/Max grinding to a halt 270613.3gp

Suggested action:

blood test at least for CK, if not a comprehensive profile . CK is a muscle enzyme. Do it after 3 days of rest, no travel, nothing stressful. Insist on copy of full blood report.

Also have grass/hay analysed, particularly for selenium. Anything less than 0.1mg/kg DM is deficient.

Start on Blue Chip Lite balancer which has a good amount of organic selenium in it (higher than other traditional balancers on the market, but without very high copper/zinc levels).

Will post more when I'm back in, probably late tonight or tomorrow.

Sarah
 
ok many thanks, cant view vids at the min but will keep trying, just wondered why the other horse has gone more lively and mine more sleepy!, am giving mine a scoop of hoof first in her tiny feed after any work , not sure if that has selenium in it will check it out online.
 
ahh yep managed to view the vid of the black cob , thats her to a 'T' , no naughtyness just like she needs new batteries! , will have to think long and hard about keeping her in during the day i think but we have now stuffed the stables with hay, so may need a gate on the shelter! then i can feed her safely without over feeding !
 
Sorry to write such an abrupt list of suggestions earlier on, but I was keen to reply before I went out, and was running out of time to do that. Glad you've been able to see the video - I've had people describe Max as lazy, stubborn, strong-willed etc, but I have known that he was trying his best, but just unable to do much.

I would argue that Max isn't lethargic though. Lethargy is something that would show up even at rest, with a pony looking more snoozy than normal, whereas all my ponies are quite alert and normal at rest. That's why I try to be specific that they are work-intolerant rather than lethargic.

If it turns out that your forage is low in selenium, and that the mare's CK is higher than it should be, then it's definitely worth giving a full daily ration of a good balancer that contains around 1mg of organic selenium.

I say that because I've been trying to address the muscle problems in my gang for the last year and a bit. Initially I was using a higher than normal ration of selenium yeast plus a balancer, and 4 months after starting on that for 2 months, all ponies showed a significant improvement in CK. However, they also started with liver problems (which I don't know the cause of, but it made me cautious about feeding anything above normal levels of selenium, which can be very toxic in too high an amount), so I switched to a balancer with inorganic selenium for the next 11 months. The improvement in CK was not sustained over that period. So I recently switched back to selenium yeast, but this time just at a "normal" level, and I'm hoping to see an improvement in the next couple of months if I'm on the right track.

I have to limit my gang's food intake to stop them becoming too fat. They are turned out for 8 hours overnight wearing grazing muzzles to slow them down a bit. Then I put out 3 batches of hay for them during the day, so they don't go too long without anything. It's definitely easier to stop them putting on weight than it is to get weight off them, especially if they can't tolerate exercise. For a few months I weighed all their hay so that I could adjust it precisely for weight loss.

Interesting that the other horse is more lively. Are they on exactly the same feeds and turnout regime? I guess it could be that the other horse has greater reserves of selenium in its body, depending on its history.

But of course I might be on the wrong track altogether. Still, it's simple and relatively cheap to check out CK and forage selenium levels and that should give you a good idea of whether the might account for the problems you are seeing.

If that is the cause, then within about 4 to 5 months of starting on a suitable balancer, then I'd hope you might see an improvement, but like I say this is all stuff I've yet to prove.

I felt that the vets had pretty much run out of ideas for my gang, so I ended up doing a lot of reading up and trying to work out for myself what might be wrong.

Sarah
 
What's in the small feed? Maybe she just isn't getting enough energy into her. If you are concerned, have the vet check her over, but I have a 3 year old and he is the laziest creature I have ever met, the only thing he ever puts any effort into is avoiding work! When he is in at night I regularly have to get him out of bed in the morning, and I am not there particularly early either. I put it down to growing, and hope he improves with age!
 
my mare has half a scoop of either cool mix or conditioning cubes and her hoof first after exercize , my friends mare has the same without the suppliments, she is also having chemo on a rare type of lump which was growing on her nose (my friends mare) so she had lost condition due to that over the winter but has got to a healthy weight now and is ridden between chemo sessions. This makes it even weirder that my mare is so dispondant to work, i was looking at videos of us just after backing her last year , she was so responsive and willing, now shes still great to catch, groom tack up but its like shes lost her spirit makes me really sad , ive even been in touch with an animal communicator but shes fully booked until november! i backed her lightly in march, just done inhand work etc until june, got back on in july and hacked and lightly schooled until sept, she had the winter off with just inhand work , leading her down the road etc, i got back on again in march and have built up slowly since then.
 
Hmmmm, it is interesting how 2 horses on the same regime can be different, and yet I wouldn't rule out a mineral deficiency. Like I say, a simple forage analysis for minerals will give you an idea whether that's possible or not.

Had a quick look online at the feed you mentioned as being vits/mins and it doesn't mention selenium, so personally I really would make that the first thing you change and go for one with selenium yeast in it instead.

My 2 worst affected ponies are homebreds, and the next worst one I bought as a weanling, so they have been with me during their growth/development on a selenium-deficient diet. Also, if they were born from selenium-deficient mares (which I suspect mine were - all retained their placentas, which is associated with selenium deficiency in other species and in horses) then the deficiency is compounded through the generations.

Don't know if any of that applies to your mare, but I hope you get to the bottom of the cause.

Sarah
 
ok, will prob opt for a balancer with selenium, i read up on it too, can be quite toxic on its own in high doses, also looking at keeping her in during the day out of heat and flies and off the grass, she spends most of the time in her shelter anyway, shes always been quiet even on suregrow when she was younger but she was more responsive and willing, just not herself anymore.
 
At 4 years old, I really would not worry too much - went thru this with Shy, and he's now striding out. He's on Topspec lite balancer and cool condition cubes, and has never had more energy. BUT he is still growing (up and inch this year) and he's six, nearly seven, so I just take it steady. x
 
Regarding your feed, I wonder why you are giving something that you say is overweight, a conditioning mix? You also describe her as lethargic, so why a cool mix? If you only need to feed something to give her hoof supplement then I'd just give her a handful of chaff, nothing more.
She's only 4, what sort of ridden education has she had so far? Does she understand your forward aids in the first place?
 
Just watched your vid (riding one!). Have you had his back checked, saddle fitted (or at least checked to see it fits for the time being)...He looks to be a tad lame behind..maybe have him checked by vet/physio? Also if he is out full time and a bit podgy, i would bring him in stable for the day and put him out at night ( or vice versa, whichever suits). Def just put him on a balancer for the time being ie Spillers Lite/Dengie Lite and if you really want a chop, Hi Fi Molasses Free, literally a handful.. Just a suggestion :)
 
Hi Micky

I guess it's my vide of Max at the trot that you have watched. I have been trying to get to the bottom of Max's problems for a couple of years and he has had many checks in that time.

Thankfully, bloods pointed us in the right direction. His main muscle enzyme, CK (creatine kinase) is at around 3,500 the whole time, compared to the lab reference for a normal horse of 225. So in other words, he has sufficient ongoing muscle damage to be on the verge of tying up the whole time.

Sarah
 
Before you get carried away with deficiencies and blood tests - just how overweight are we talking? Because the first things that spring to mind with this sort of issue are fitness and weight - if your horse is overweight and unfit, it is going to be reluctant to move forwards...
 
Sounds like you are at the beginning of being able to remedy his problems, with the blood tests back...see what the vet recommends, then google like mad for forums relating to what ever you have to do! I have had to do this with my newly diagnosed PPID horse, very hard for a few weeks , now getting to be on top of it and back in control ( hopefully) of his body! Hope you get sorted soon, and on the road to recovery and eventually riding :)
 
thanks everyone, had my weds night lesson and it was alot cooler and no flies, she was ace, also asked my instructors opinion on her weight and she said shes fine, as she is still growing, maybe a little extra on her belly although flanks, crest and shoulder are all spot on!. as for her feed i dont think 1/4 to 1/2 a scoop a day as a thankyou is a huge amount .
 
My poor poor baby was born with djd, and after 2 incorrect diagnosis i changed vets, got her xrayed and now my 4yr old is having to be pts, her stifles are soo badly affected my.poor girl has never been without pain and although never showing any major signs of discomfort or lameness , just a reluctance to go faster than trot, got very dispondent in the school and loves hacking out. Ive never had a youngster before but even experianced eventing friends couldnt pin point the problem. Even on a good energy feed she was calm. I urge any horse owner to go with their gut instict, you know your horse, whether it be blood tests, scans anything if you feel it will give you answers you must do it xx
 
So sorry to hear this, was following this thread before as my 4 year old has the tendancy to be quite laid back. Worst possible news but at least you found out the cause now and didn't keep working her whilst she was in pain. Hugs xx
 
before you go adding supplements you should consider getting a blood test done. I purchased my laid back ISH in April this year he was dull and always seemed tired! I thought it was his great laid back temperament but I had a blood test just to be sure and it came back he was anaemic, had raised WBC and his liver enzymes were extremely high even the vet got a shock as he looked well in his coat and weight was ok. Fast forward 6 months and he still is laid back but much more energy and repeat blood test are fine except for liver which is still a bit high but we will test in in May again. So PLEASE get a blood test done.
 
lynnandbella said:
my 4 yr old irish draught cross is soooo lethargic im wondering what to do, she is quite podgy and on full turn out with only a small feed after work. im aware that its hot so wait until after 7pm before trying any form of exercize , she really doesnt need feeding up as theres a good lot of grass at the moment and her field mate is extremely full of energy, do i try and strip graze her to get her weight down? she wont go above walk on the lunge, and only a small amount of trot when ridden. The mare she is kept next too is very lively, bucking and full of energy when ridden.
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Firstly you shouldn't be doing too much work with your horse as she is far too young. Her joints won't be developed yet and if you do too much you could ruin her for her later years when she will be more at risk of developing arthritis.

I would try to reduce her weight and feed her an energy mix that will not put weight on or send her fizzy. Spillers do an excellent one for good doers, and I use it on my WB for competing, as it give him energy but in a controlled manner.

I would also get her examined by a vet to see if there are any physical issues (other than her weight) which are causing her to be like this. If this shows nothing reduce her weight, vary her work load so she is not doing lots of circles in the school. Take her hacking to educate her, take her on the odd fun ride and do the bare minimum in the school until she is at least five and a half or six.

I had a four year old ID that I used to do loads on, because I was naive. I lost him as a five year old due to a broken leg. Not saying the workload had any bearing on it, but I certainly wouldn't do half of what I did with him then, now. I had the same trouble as you and he wouldn't go foward, he was on competition mix, I rode with spurs and a whip and he was really lethargic. I think it is the breed that has a lot to do with their 'calm and quiet' nature.
 
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So sorry to hear your news. I missed this thread first time round and as I was reading your first post I was going to suggest it may be pain related. I have been recently been through a similar experience with my boy who pretty much ground to a halt in the school but was fine on the flat hacking, struggled on hills but loved jumping. Pain was the last thing I considered and I did the dietary changes, supplements etc for too long before getting the vet in as there was nothing 'visibly' wrong. He looked well just but he was so slow and reluctant, like an old man, and he is an 9yo bred to event. Fortunately for me the vets have been able to treat the problem, at least for the time being. If I ever experience anything baffling like that again the vet will be my first port of call - sounds obvious but when there's nothing to see you think you can fix it with some management changes.

You have given great advice in your last post, and once again I'm so sorry for you and your lovely girl. Brave you for doing what's right.
 
I am sorry, I didn't read your update as I was on my lunch break and time was of a premium.

I am very sorry to hear your news, thinking of you at this sad time x
 
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