Licence to breed?

[eventing_chick]

I have been reading with great inerest the posts concerning continental breeding,AI ect....
IMO there are far too many poor quality horses being bred for the sake of having a foal.
I feel also there is a basic lack of knowlege concerning conformation and some of the reasons i have recently heard for stallion choice are very questionable.
I would like to see the introduction of a licencing system to try and stop more and more rubbish being bred,pasted from pillar to post only to end up in yet another sale ring.
I pity these poor horses.

 

[vicijp]

I agree.
I think every stallion and potential broodmare should have to be 'graded' before allowed any nookie. Even TB's (dont get me started on the Irish dominated race breeding industry!).

 

[eventing_chick]

Do you think competition achivements should carry as much weight as gradings?

 

[AndyPandy]

I think gradings should take competition record into account. HOWEVER - a good competition stallion/mare will not necessarily make a good breeding stallion/mare, and vice versa. That is why I think gradings are important. A licensing system would be very sensible.

 

[airedale]

I would totally support that. It should be that if you want to breed your horse - mare or stallion - then you get it graded with an appropriate society - whether it be sports pony, aes, shb(gb), bwbs, or whatever

three are ample opportunities to get your horse in front of the grading judges

cost should be no excuse for not grading

the cost of putting a mare in foal and then tending that foal once it is born is basically astronomical for every time you breed that mare - a grading is a one-off cost and lasts for the life of the horse mainly (unless it is a preliminary grading where future results are necessary to get life graded)

we don't need licensing per se (i.e. defra involvement) - but we do need to only be permitted to stand graded stallions and breed from graded mares

unsoundness due to injury should not be a barrier but unsoundness due to conformation defects should be a barrier to breeding

it is sad also that those people doing it 'right' by grading, etc, get dragged down by the breed any old mare to any old stallion 'cos the mare can't be ridden - thus damaging the chances that britain will start to shine more and more on the international horse stage with riders mounted on british bred horses.

we CAN do this if we have the will and inclination to do this

 

[airedale]

in a grading there are points awarded for competition record so a great competition record can balance out a slight conformation defect in one area - but wouldn't mitigate extensive conformation defects

 

[eventing_chick]

I have not got mine graded i must admit but only one has covered a mare.
He is not at public stud.
I have already said that they must reach ADV level and have no soundness issues before they are available to the public.

 

[Fleur100]

All Native pony stallions have to be inspected & Licenced before being allowed to stand at stud. Any un-licenced stallion's off spring is not eligible to be entered in the breed's register.

For example a New Forest Stallion is inspected at 2 & 5 years. They are assesed on conformation, movement and against the breed standard. Only those scoring a high enough mark in all sections are licenced. They also have introduced performance grading and grading for brood mares.

 

[lilym]

that's all very well for stud bred NF but what about some of the god awful unfortunate mares running on the forest?? these should not be bred from....

 

[Navalgem]

Bit divided on this. Some stallions/mares can jump but progeny are naff and some naff for competition (I mean not reached top) but 'correct' animals produce amazing youngsters. Plus how many young stallions are retired to stud at about 10 years old because they've been pushed too far too young and jacked. My 6year old KWPN gelding has serious confidance issues because he can jump a big fence and some muppett stuffed him straight in a foxhunter class at age 5 when he'd only done a few trailblazers before.

 

[henryhorn]

I have to say this post fills me with horror, what about the person who has had the most super mare for their own purposes who wishes to reproduce her? Why on earth should they have to go to what everyone else's idea of a top class stallion should be to breed another horse?
It sounds like the breeding programme in Hitler's Germany!
Yes there are plent of crappy horses in this country, but there are plenty of well bred crappy horses around too. One of the worst horses we ever bred cost us a ridiculous amount of money in stud fees, yet the offspring of a world class stallion with the highest grading possible had an apalling temperament and had to be pts aged 12 due to joint problems. The same brood mare put to other stallions produced winning stock who are still sound in their late teens.
By all means offer grading systems, but have them a bit more realistic than they are at present.
When we decided to re-register our current stallion we looked into most of the societies requirements. One said although he was 14 they would not take that or the fact he had suffered a broken pelvis due to an accident into consideration.
another rejects anything that weaves.. sorry but weaving was something that developed when he was stabled for 18 months after his accident..so there went another route to grading.
Then I rang a warmblood type organisation. Well yes, they had numerous stallions apply for grading but only a tinypercentage ever got passed on their own admission.. the cost was astronomical for what was likely to be a failure.
At this point I gave up and paid Weatherbys' £460 to have him vetted (Bob Barker a well known horse vet did it, and said he was a stunning horse with excellent conformation and movement and dead sound considering his age and history!)
originally his owner had used the Database which as we all know went bump..
Now this stallion's dam has competed successfully round Burghley more than once and Badminton too; his sire has produced numerous good competition horses yet if grading was all we could do, he would not be allowed to breed..
Admittedly his own career is only just starting but in the 7 competitions of 8 he has done up to now he has been placed in all but one, and that was due to rider error aiming him at the wrong fence!!
If we follow your rule of only graded horses being allowed to breed he is out of the picture...
No I totally disagree with the idea of only "graded" animals being bred from, who on earth is prepared to say what they consider worth breeding from?
All you will end up with is whatever some dominant person thinks hoses should be; our current system is full of faults I agree, but part of the UK's charm is the fact we can all have freedom of choice, why should that be taken away because you or someone else doesn't approve of our choice of mare or stallion?
The last sentance in the reply by airdale says it all for me;
thus damaging the chances that britain will start to shine more and more on the international horse stage with riders mounted on british bred horses.
Why must our entire breeding programme be aimed at top riders and competition horses? How many of the people on this forum actually compete at International Level for instance? Very few, no they need nice ordinary sound willing good tempered horses not world class ones..
I will fight tooth and nail for my right to breed what I choose to, if the day comes when legislation like that is passed I will sell the lot.

 

[vicijp]

Henryhorn,
I completely support the aim of your breeding programme, and admire you for it. Although I do support a grading for breeding jobbie I dont think it should be as clear cut as they seem to be now (not that I know much about it).
IMO confirmation and attitude are the 2 most important things. By attitude I dont necessarily mean quiet, just trainable.
Im not involved with competition horse breeding, as you know. My main bugbears about TB breeding are small, mad, wonky mares being allowed to breed because they are a half brother to something decent. But I do think something slightly wonky could be allowed, if it has a reasonably sound and good career record - loook at Attraction.
Breeding produces freaks, 2 straight ones can produce a wonky one.
Perhaps split the needs into percentages in order of importance, then mark each individual horse.
How people decide which is more important I dont know - maybe arm wrestles?

 

[tara tee]

What papers are the foals by your stallion sold with and which society can they be registered with?

I am asking because in BSJA at least, to jump in young horse classes, horses must have full breeding papers.

I agree that grading a stallion is expensive, but surely if he's worth breeding from he's worth grading. And how do you decide which mares he is allowed to cover?

I am sure yours is a lovely stallion, but I can't help feeling that until all stallions and mares used for breeding in Britain are of a similar quality, maybe decided by grading, there is no chance Britain will be able to compete with the rest of Europe on the breeding front.

I'm afraid that if I had to choose between buying two nice horses, one with a full set of papers going back generations, with details of how the relatives had performed and the other by an ungraded stallion, with no ancestors' or relatives records to check, I would pick the former, regardless of where it was bred

 

[henryhorn]

Our stallion has Weatherby's papers and all his stock are registerable.
His sire is a reg and Graded warmblood Quendel de Bornival and the dam was on Weatherby's NTB reg.
We mostly use him on opur own mares who are purpose bred from TB x ID lines, such as Knock Boy and Michael's Revenge, both of which bloodlines have proven progeny.
Mares that come in are assessed and have to be at least 15.hh, and with nothing wrong with them that might pass on.
The grading system is truly not for us, at the moment he is slowly working his way up BE and we'll see how far he gets. I think a far better system would be competition graded, with winnings taken into account as well as a vet's assessment of suitablity.
My point is that I think the breeding of many horses is geared specifically to top class competition ones, and 90 % of the horseowners in this country don't actually want that!
A horse Pippa Funnel or John Whittaker can successfully ride might be totally unrideable by your average riding club owner, and that's who I aim at.
There is a vast market for a horse that will do BSJA up to Foxhunter/event to Novice/dressage with BD etc and be safe and sane enough to go hunting.hacking. be clipped by it's owner etc.
Many of these horses have come from ID x TB stock, and by adding warmblood to that mix you get something a little more refined but trainable.
Why is it everyone is obsessed with competing with Europe?
There are hundreds of studs already who breed top class horses, you only have to look in H and H every week to see what's offered, and I agree all horses should be passported and micro chipped, but with a far better system that we currently have.
I bought a pony the other day with a passport from the gypsy cob society..At some time he would have had a welsh passport and papers, but they had disappeared on his way through various owners, with a microchip and national register that could have been rectified.
I'm not advocating breeding from unregistered or approved stallions, but to insist mares should go through the same process is madness, it is no-one's business but the mare's owner if they decide to breed from it. what will we have next, permission to drive a certan type of car?
This country feels more and more like George Orwell's imaginary England by the day, and unless we all shout no, we're doomed...

 

[tara tee]

I don't think anyone's suggesting forbidding people from breeding from their mares. It's just all those who say oh dear, my mare's gone lame. I can't sell her, so I'll stick her in foal to the stallion down the road, who I think are so wrong.

The reason everyone keeps mentioning Europe is because you have forum members such as Airedale calling for people to buy British-bred horses only and until British breeders compete realistically with the horses on offer (often for less money) in Europe, that may never happen.

Your horses may be equal in quality to those bred in Europe, but I don't think they would be able to compete in BSJA young horse clases. I have a feeling that the BSJA don't accept Weatherbys NTR papers. It's something to do with the fact that you can obtain NTR papers for offspring of ungraded and unregistered horses, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

From a financial perspective, people like me who don't pretend to have the ability John Whitaker has in his little finger, would still be prepared pay more for the offspring of a graded stallion who has also proved himself in competition. Then if it was a potential superstar, you could at least ask John to ride it in BSJA young horse classes.

 

[Navalgem]

I agree, my TB mare is 15, I purchased her as a 3 year old and although her father and full brother were successful, as were many mares on her dams line but not her dam herself. I was only 12 at the time and did mostly RC jumping and local regional finals and when I could scrounge lifts BSJA I jumped on tickets because for the few times I got to go I couldn't afford the membership fees. My mare can jump 1.40 and has jumped double clear over a 1.10m course, however due to lack of finances and transport I've no idea how far she'd actually have gone. Her conformation is excellent for a TB although her neck is set on very low and she is rather long-backed (but dont think thats too bad in a mare anyway), she's only ever been lame once when a cut led to cellulitis, and her temprement is second to none. I wanted to breed a foal from her even though she has no comp record because she has nice paces and a good jumping technique and I chose a stallion I thought would complement her faults who had an excellent temprement. The resulting foal is everything I could have hoped for and I expect that if he has half his mother and fathers attitude and ability he'll at least be good enough for foxhunter classes and probably more. I admit the stallion I used does have an excellent jumping record but I'm now considering using an as yet unproven young stallion who has tremendous ability and a great attitude to work and learning. But my foals are bred for me to do the job I want. Not everyone wants a grand-prix jumper or equivalent and if mine actually showed the ability and scope that far I'd have to sell him cause I couldn't afford to keep him. As Henryhorn says, whatabout todays happy-hackers and rc riders - would they pay 10+k to have a horse to hack out/compete occasionally? This is total madness.

 

[Navalgem]

[ QUOTE ]
Then if it was a potential superstar, you could at least ask John to ride it in BSJA young horse classes.

[/ QUOTE ]

and if you win the lottery you might be able to afford to pay him for the privelege! Top riders expect to be paid to compete a horse, plus all the extras of top quality tack and the entry fees and stabling at shows, travel expenses etc etc etc

This is why I said in my post if my foal was a potential superstar I'd have to sell him or accept the fact he'll never reach his full potential with me and he'll end up competing at rc or in 1.10 open classes or some such, which would then be a waste. Catch 22.

 

[tara tee]

Well strangely, it sometimes doesn't cost too much. One of my friends had a horse ridden by one of the top boys. The deal was that he paid all the expenses and she got a third of the prize-money. If yours was a potential superstar, you might find people queuing up to do the same

 

[dozzie]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a vast market for a horse that will do BSJA up to Foxhunter/event to Novice/dressage with BD etc and be safe and sane enough to go hunting.hacking. be clipped by it's owner etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree! We dont all want worldbeaters! But we do want correct moving horses with good conformation as this hopefully(never guaranteed) will keep them sound and healthy!

But heh! I know nothing about breeding! So please dont have a go at me!!

But to me temperament is everything!

ETA HH I might have to come and look at your foalies!!!!

 

[eventing_chick]

I must admit that my boys have the best of tempraments ( which is why they still have thier balls!) I have a small yard and rely on mum a lot and she's getting on (but wom't love me for saying that) Temprament,trainability and conformation all equally important to me.
I agree not everyone wants a world beeter, but the overall mechanical soundness issues from using sub standard lame 'nags' to produce more unsound lame 'nags' needs addressing.
I agree with henryhorn( i think i'm right saying ) who did not feel compelled to grade as i don't. Although am concidering it.
Maybe it should be a question of licencing or aproving an individual to breed horses??

 

[henryhorn]

Funnily enough I asked my other half what he thought earlier, and his list was first and most important soundness. Then temperament. Then trainabilty before talent..
As he pointed out the best jumper in the world is pretty useless if you can't use it if it's unsound, handle it because it's difficult, or train it if it doesn't want to know..
A man's view for you..

 

[vicijp]

[ QUOTE ]
pretty useless if you can't use it if it's unsound, handle it because it's difficult, or train it if it doesn't want to know..
A man's view for you..

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure he wasnt on about the wife???

 

[airedale]

All my horses are graded and some have competed with great success nationally
and they are all able to be ridden by 'muppets' if you like - although obviously they go better and produce better results for a more knowledgeable rider

given the choice between grading and government intervention - which is the alternative unless with stick with the present system of any old mare bred to any old stallion then I'll pick grading every time over DEFRA - the latter I wouldn't trust with a budgie let alone a horse

mares must be graded - lots of other posts on here have pointed out that a lot of what comes out in the foal comes from the mare

your stallion is a credit but also an exception to the norm in that he has come back from serious injury to perform to the level he has

I accept that some horses that are late developers may fail a grading when young and others will pass and then be useless - however it is never too late to try - one of my mares graded when over 15

 

[henryhorn]

This is one of those posts when we agreee to politely disagree!
I have yet to see a top class horse particularly a dressage one that can be ridden by a muppet...The top riders seem to have enough trouble a lot of the time espcially at prize givings.
It's the intervention that I feel the most strongly about I think, I agree in an ideal world only "good" mares should be bred from, but so many people have such fun breeding and provided they don't plan to offload them onto the market I feel no-one has the right to tell them they can't breed.
How would anyone decide what was suitable to grade anyway? A mare that is a fantastic hack/hunter etc and just perfect in every way for it's purpose may fail a grading on a conformation issue, something that might disappear in it's progeny to the right stallion.
The system is awful I admit, but with so many societies and grading standards I truly think they could never agree on a formula that would please them all.
I find the breeding of the Dartmoor hill ponies a complete waste of time for instance, dozens of under height scrubby ponies breeding to a stallion, admittedly they are tough little devils, but why breed mongrels who already have massive conformation issues and are pretty wild to start with? but I defend the right of their owners to do that, they would no doubt say they have a market for small ponies and cite dozens of PC ones in regular use!
Instead of more legislation lets have education instead, microchipping for all and premiums for good mares, with concessions for graded mares...
At least that way the pressure will be to produce stuff worth grading instead of the present chaos..
But as I said, let's politely disagree Airdale.

 

[bettens]

The Spanish Stud book has always required its stock to be graded before it is allowed to reproduce. All foals are inscripted onto the stud book at birth provided they fulfill the basic breed criteria, then between 3 - 4 years old they are presented to the stud book for grading and have to fulfill the basic conformation, temperament and movement attributes of the breed.

This then renders them 'Apto' approved for breeding (mares and stallions have to go through the process). The stallions at this point may cover - but not by AI. There is a second and third level - Calificado and Elite which then confers status in terms of the horses sucess and the success of its progeny. At this stage they can AI.

AI is permissable for partbred Spanish breeding at any level of grading, but not for purebreds (PREs)

So I am well use to working within this type of system and it doesn't give me any problems - BUT all of my counterparts have to conform to the same regime which means a level playing field for us as breeders and stud owners.

It does of course mean more financial considerations - inscription costs approx £250 and you may have to travel foal to an area where a vet is trained to do this. Grading costs around £400 and again you have to travel to a grading for this. So one of the reasons Spanish horses are expensive is the costs associated with the paperwork system of the stud book. That said, you can trace the stocks history back 8+ generations all through graded stock and so the whole emphasis is on quality and breed type.

I personally like this. Generally, stock produced is of good to excellent quality - there will always be exceptions and some rubbish is produced, but this is eliminated from the system by the grading.

Rach

 

[Navalgem]

[ QUOTE ]

Instead of more legislation lets have education instead, microchipping for all and premiums for good mares, with concessions for graded mares...


[/ QUOTE ]

Think this is something similar to what is done on the continent isn't it? perhaps thats why they can produce good quality horses cheaper than this country........

I only wish that this country would implement such a programme, it would help breeders, prospective purchasers and surely enable our riders to ride more british bred horses (cue airedale clapping

) at the top levels.

 

[sallyf]

This is one of my broodmares (three weeks before foaling)who i will never put forward for grading as she sustained Nerve damage in her back as a two yr old and is mechanically lame.
So am i wrong to breed from her does she have poor conformation or any reason not to be bred from.
She was one of the best riding horse /hunter foals/yearlings about before her accident.
She is out of a head studbook graded mare by an SHB stallion
so is automatically eligable for main stud book papers from her breeding without going forward for grading.
I have 2 half sisters who are possibly better mares who arnt eligable because they are by just normal weatherbys TB stallions who were nothing to do with SHB.
I chose to use these other stallions as they had better progeny records and actually threw better temperaments.
Unless i put my other mares forward for grading they will only have auxillery papers so for this reason i have reregistered all of my stock with the weatherbys NTR register thus losing there pedigrees in the short term although we know there breeding.
I feel that i have been compromised by not using a SHB stallion but to be honest there wasnt anything at the time that suited my requirement and i will not be forced into using stallions i dont consider to be good enough.
Most of these societies want there heads banging together as they are not going forward in a constructive fashion.

 

[magic104]

It would also help to limit the covering certificates to stallions, that way it would be in the studs best interest to only use good mares. After all the foals are the showcase for the stallion. I also think that all stallions should be graded before they can stand at public stud. There also has to be an improvement in riding though, too many good horses are ruined by bad handling/riding which then gets blamed on bad breeding.

 

[henryhorn]

Couldn't have said it better, they make it so hard by their muddle.
Breeding these days is certainly no way to make money, I reckon I sell mine at a loss to what they cost me, but I do it because I enjoy providing good horses for people.
We only started competing the stallions because we were horrified by the rubbish others were offering, and the proof is that virtually every horse we have ever bred has stayed in it's original home.
It's a case now though of for how long to continue, the thought of paying to get them all graded doesn't bear thinking about, I think until the public start paying sensible prices for stock it's a non starter.
No I'll just quietly keep breeding nice horses until it becomes impossible...

 

[sallyf]

double post as system crashed som deleted