Ashf
Well-Known Member
Go on, whats all that about ??
Is it cheating by any other name ?
Lights touch paper and retires
Is it cheating by any other name ?
Lights touch paper and retires
Life Height certificates
- Thread starter Ashf
- Start date
Lobelia_Overhill
Well-Known Member
I'd like to know that too, as I know someone who had a 14.2hh life cert for her pony, but someone else was allowed to object that her pony was over height, and she had to have the pony re-measured despite his being 14 y/o at the time
Huh?!?
Huh?!?
Leigh
New User
life height certificates are used as a way to confirm the height of a horse or pony as a way of proving that the horse in question is eligible for a certain class when competing. For example ponys competing in height restricted show jumping will often have one just to prove that they are definitely the correct height even if they look to be bigger. However to get the certificate all the shoes are removed and i've heard horror stories of feet being cut right down to make ponies small enough to be measured at certain heights
i suppose when used properly the idea is to save time and effort in making sure that the ponies are the correct height for the class, but i really don't like the idea of any ponies having to suffer just because of this
when i was at college there was a 14.2hh bsja pony with a life height certificate, however we measured him at 15.1hh!!
i suppose when used properly the idea is to save time and effort in making sure that the ponies are the correct height for the class, but i really don't like the idea of any ponies having to suffer just because of this
when i was at college there was a 14.2hh bsja pony with a life height certificate, however we measured him at 15.1hh!!
FMM
Well-Known Member
In order to get a life height certificate you need to have had at least one annual height certificate done and the horse or pony needs to be at least 7. Even if the horse is 7 or older when they have their first measurement done, you still need an annual the year before the life height is done.
You cannot use the same vet two years in a row. This is in order to avoid any sort of irregularities.
People tend to have their show horses measured (can't comment about showjumpers!) in January when the horses have been let down after HOYS in October, been turned away for their holidays and are more relaxed and not muscled up. This means you can probably get another half an inch max off their "showing" height.
The horses are measured without shoes on a measuring pad. You have to take your horse to the approved JMB (joint measurement board) vet, and stand the horse on the measuring pad. You have to put the legs in a certain position and are given a little time to get them relaxed. The cost of this is around £60 a time.
People DO object to heights and apply for horses to be remeasured. However, in showing and show jumping, the main reason for overheight horses being discovered is if they win at HOYS. The HOYS champion must be remeasured for every class. This is the last time they should ever have to be remeasured if they are over 7.
A very famous spotted show jumping pony was discovered to be well over height - not sure if this was found out just before he was due to be sold for an amazing amount of money!
A well known coloured show horse is now competing in a different height limit (still very successfully) as he was about 1.5 inches over the required height.
It is very easy for horses out of Ireland (particularly cobs) to go overheight. The reason for this is that the Irish horses are often sold as being 4 or 5 whereas they are in fact only 3. This means they have the chance of growing an extra centimetre or so when they have supposedly reached 7 years old and they are in fact only 5 or 6.
Our HW show cob (Robocob) won his HOYS championship class last year and many people thought he would go over height as he carries himself. In fact, he went in first time at 155 cm (15.1) without any problem at all. Look at the pic and tell me if you think he is only 15.1? The problem is that so may people do it by eye, and how on earth can you really tell that a horse is a cm bigger just by looking. In truth it is not really possible!
I have also heard horror stories of what people do to get their horses measured in. It may be more prevalent with sj ponies as their value is so huge. We have not had to do that as our horses so far have all measured in for their classes quite easily. If they don't then they are sold on as riding club types and the new owners are lucky enough to get quality horses at a really good price!
You cannot use the same vet two years in a row. This is in order to avoid any sort of irregularities.
People tend to have their show horses measured (can't comment about showjumpers!) in January when the horses have been let down after HOYS in October, been turned away for their holidays and are more relaxed and not muscled up. This means you can probably get another half an inch max off their "showing" height.
The horses are measured without shoes on a measuring pad. You have to take your horse to the approved JMB (joint measurement board) vet, and stand the horse on the measuring pad. You have to put the legs in a certain position and are given a little time to get them relaxed. The cost of this is around £60 a time.
People DO object to heights and apply for horses to be remeasured. However, in showing and show jumping, the main reason for overheight horses being discovered is if they win at HOYS. The HOYS champion must be remeasured for every class. This is the last time they should ever have to be remeasured if they are over 7.
A very famous spotted show jumping pony was discovered to be well over height - not sure if this was found out just before he was due to be sold for an amazing amount of money!
A well known coloured show horse is now competing in a different height limit (still very successfully) as he was about 1.5 inches over the required height.
It is very easy for horses out of Ireland (particularly cobs) to go overheight. The reason for this is that the Irish horses are often sold as being 4 or 5 whereas they are in fact only 3. This means they have the chance of growing an extra centimetre or so when they have supposedly reached 7 years old and they are in fact only 5 or 6.
Our HW show cob (Robocob) won his HOYS championship class last year and many people thought he would go over height as he carries himself. In fact, he went in first time at 155 cm (15.1) without any problem at all. Look at the pic and tell me if you think he is only 15.1? The problem is that so may people do it by eye, and how on earth can you really tell that a horse is a cm bigger just by looking. In truth it is not really possible!
I have also heard horror stories of what people do to get their horses measured in. It may be more prevalent with sj ponies as their value is so huge. We have not had to do that as our horses so far have all measured in for their classes quite easily. If they don't then they are sold on as riding club types and the new owners are lucky enough to get quality horses at a really good price!
Ashf
Well-Known Member
I think what I'm saying is that the system is open to abuse by unscrupulous owners and dealers, and when a Pony (Horse) has a big jumping advantage in competition due to its (true) height, it leaves all the other (real) ponies at a distinct disadvantage.
I think that if the pony (Horse) is measured over height when it is brought into question, then a life height certificate shouldn't be worth the paper its written on.
Just my 2 ps worth
I think that if the pony (Horse) is measured over height when it is brought into question, then a life height certificate shouldn't be worth the paper its written on.
Just my 2 ps worth
FMM
Well-Known Member
Umm - as I said before, it is very easy for people to get the pony's age wrong, and therefore get a life height BEFORE the pony is really seven years old. That is not anyone's fault in particular. In real life, it is very rare to see horses or ponies going over height. If there are several thousand registered jumping ponies in the uk, probably on 2 a year are remeasured as overheight. That is hardly enough to say that life height certificates are worthless!
It is not the owners or dealers that measure the horse - it is the vet. And the vets are tested regularly by the JMB in order to ensure that they are doing the work properly and fairly.
However, I think it is a joke that horses are automatically remeasured if they are champions at HOYS. Either it is a life height certificate or it isn't. THAT is what seems pretty stupid to me. A remeasurement should be as a result of someone complaining that they believe a horse or pony is not the correct height.
If you visit the JMBonline website you can see how few horses and ponies really measure out each year.
It is not the owners or dealers that measure the horse - it is the vet. And the vets are tested regularly by the JMB in order to ensure that they are doing the work properly and fairly.
However, I think it is a joke that horses are automatically remeasured if they are champions at HOYS. Either it is a life height certificate or it isn't. THAT is what seems pretty stupid to me. A remeasurement should be as a result of someone complaining that they believe a horse or pony is not the correct height.
If you visit the JMBonline website you can see how few horses and ponies really measure out each year.
Ashf
Well-Known Member
If you entered a competition and were beaten into 2nd place by a 15:1hh 'pony', and its stood substantially higher than your own pony which you had measured and knew to be a genuine 14:2 pony - trimmed feet or not, I think you would have a right to feel a bit miffed.
If there is room for error, why not make it 10 years to ensure that it will not grow any more if a system like this is to be used ?
You can get a good idea of the ponies age by its teeth and there would be a big differnce between a 7 year olds teeth and a 10 year olds teeth.
If a rider has to prove that they are EG 17 years old or under/over on the day of a competition, I don't think its unreasonable to expect the onus to be on the owners to ensure that their Ponies or Horses meet the criteria laid down by the organisers. If your animal is borderline then all the more reason for you to ensure that you meet the requirements.
I'm still not convinced that a life height cert is the right way .
If there is room for error, why not make it 10 years to ensure that it will not grow any more if a system like this is to be used ?
You can get a good idea of the ponies age by its teeth and there would be a big differnce between a 7 year olds teeth and a 10 year olds teeth.
If a rider has to prove that they are EG 17 years old or under/over on the day of a competition, I don't think its unreasonable to expect the onus to be on the owners to ensure that their Ponies or Horses meet the criteria laid down by the organisers. If your animal is borderline then all the more reason for you to ensure that you meet the requirements.
I'm still not convinced that a life height cert is the right way .
FMM
Well-Known Member
The main reason for not changing it to 10 years is that it is time consuming and expensive to deliver your horse to a vet for measuring. £60 for measuring then either hiring or driving your own vehicle. The idea of the height certificate is that it proves the horse or pony is the right height.
If you have a problem with the height of a pony in a jumping competition you should put in a complaint. If people do that, then it will weed out the ones that are overheight.
I showed a dun cob last year that was only 14.3 (which is within the height band for cobs (14.2-15.1). She was dwarfed by the other cobs. So many people came up to me and said that the other horses were overheight but they weren't - mine was simply a midget cob!
If you have a problem with the height of a pony in a jumping competition you should put in a complaint. If people do that, then it will weed out the ones that are overheight.
I showed a dun cob last year that was only 14.3 (which is within the height band for cobs (14.2-15.1). She was dwarfed by the other cobs. So many people came up to me and said that the other horses were overheight but they weren't - mine was simply a midget cob!
Ashf
Well-Known Member
Do you have a link for JMBs site ?
Lobelia_Overhill
Well-Known Member
The person I knew had her pony re-measured and he was 14.2 and ¼ (half a centimetre?) and she was no longer allowed to ride him in junior competitions
I also knew someone who had a pony who was 13.2hh-ish. He looked a lot bigger to me, so one day we sneaked him over to the flat concrete and measured him and lo and behold he was around 13.2hh at his [flat as a pancake] withers but he was around 14.1hh at his [rather large] rump... 0.0
I also met a 14.2hh pony who was really 15.1hh and the owner knew it, but rode in 14.2 and under classes because she [the pony] was only young.
I also knew someone who had a pony who was 13.2hh-ish. He looked a lot bigger to me, so one day we sneaked him over to the flat concrete and measured him and lo and behold he was around 13.2hh at his [flat as a pancake] withers but he was around 14.1hh at his [rather large] rump... 0.0
I also met a 14.2hh pony who was really 15.1hh and the owner knew it, but rode in 14.2 and under classes because she [the pony] was only young.
FMM
Well-Known Member
http://www.thejmbonline.co.uk/jmb%20re-m%20results2006.htm
This is the remeasurement page. It is quite complicated. You have to know what the horse was meant to have measured in order to discover whether it was overheight or not! The invalid measurements are not the horses which were measured overheight. Invalid measurements I believe are when a horse has been given an illegal substance whilst it was being measured, the owners did not put the horse up for remeasurement within the timescales, the form has been tampered with.
The FEI rules are different (which I had not realised not having an FEI horse!) The most interesting one is that the pony has to be fit to compete. Therefore, they can't do the same as the show horses i.e. let the horse down over the winter in order to ensure that the minimum measurement is attained.
This is the remeasurement page. It is quite complicated. You have to know what the horse was meant to have measured in order to discover whether it was overheight or not! The invalid measurements are not the horses which were measured overheight. Invalid measurements I believe are when a horse has been given an illegal substance whilst it was being measured, the owners did not put the horse up for remeasurement within the timescales, the form has been tampered with.
The FEI rules are different (which I had not realised not having an FEI horse!) The most interesting one is that the pony has to be fit to compete. Therefore, they can't do the same as the show horses i.e. let the horse down over the winter in order to ensure that the minimum measurement is attained.