Life Height Certificates

[Toby_Zaphod]

Have you noticed that anyone who rides what appears to be a 15h+ horse in a 14h2" class seems to have a life height certificate. Those who are actually riding a genuine 14h2" pony don't have them.

Is it not time to bin these certificates and put the pony under a measure if there is any question as to their true height before they are allowed to compete?

Would this not stop some of the blatant cheating that happens at each show?

 

[Thistle]

We have large 14.2. When she is at home relaxed with trimmed feet she easily measures under. However at a show you would easily make her 15hh, especially if she is nearing needing shoeing (she grows 1/2" foot every 6 weeks).

So you tell me how big she should be? Her 'out at a party' heoght, or her true height.

BTW she does not have a height certificate.

 

[bellgave]

I agree with thistle.

I have a horse who measures and has LHC. But out at a show he looks more like 16hh not 15hh. He was fine at the vets to measure as its relativly quiet, but with a lot going on, he grows and holds himself bigger, there is NO WAY he would mesure in at a show.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

Quote "We have a large 14.2"

I knew that every one with an oversized 14h2" would come up with these replies. The pony should be measured before its class & if it's the right height it is entered if it is oversize then it should not be.

The times I've heard someone say, when looking at a 15h or over horse, "I could get that down to a 14h2" It's totally wrong & it's cheating. The fact that loads of people do it doesn't make it right. Unfortunately while some people get away with it others will join in.

 

[Thistle]

so are you saying all horses should arrive at a showground with feet trimmed and no shoes so they can be measured.

For those horses on the brink it would mean getting their feet trimmed every time they went to a show.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

The pony is either 14h2" or it isn't...that's what I mean. It's about time cheating was no longer condoned. Isn't it strange that there doesn't seem to be anyone who owns a 14h3" horse?

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
We have large 14.2. When she is at home relaxed with trimmed feet she easily measures under. However at a show you would easily make her 15hh, especially if she is nearing needing shoeing (she grows 1/2" foot every 6 weeks)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I am a bit confused here; you say that your "14.2" grows half an inch of hoof between shoeings so that makes her 14.2 and a half, so where does the other inch and a half come from to get her to make 15hh?

And if she easily measures under 14.2 when her feet are trimmed how can she ever be over 14.2 even with only half inch growth after 6 weeks?

 

[Thistle]

when at home she is relaxed and dopey. At a comp she 'grows' just holds herself differently, just like any horse does when it 'sees' something.
Last night my cob saw a scary monster in the mist. One minute she was 15hh walking next to me, next she was huge towering over me.
Also horses measure smaller when they are unfit. When fully fit and muscled up they measure bigger. So would you suggest that she competes as a pony when not fully fit but has to be a horse when fit?

She pretty much measures on 148cm at home so it really is all in the trim of her feet and how relaxed she feels. Also if she has just worked hard she measures smaller. Also you can lose .2cm by shaving the hair at the wither. I have seen 14hh ponies measure at 13.2 when they are dehydrated, where do you draw the line?

Try it with one of your own horses and measure it in lots of different circumstances and you will see what I mean. If a human can shrink by 1cm during the day I'm sure a horse can too. height is not a fixed measure, it depends on too many things.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

Quote :I have seen 14hh ponies measure at 13.2 when they are dehydrated, where do you draw the line?

Quote : Also horses measure smaller when they are unfit. When fully fit and muscled up they measure bigger. So would you suggest that she competes as a pony when not fully fit but has to be a horse when fit?

So you get your pony measured when he is under weight & unfit with no muscle & dehydrated. Why bother when he is in no condition to compete & you don't know if he will be any good. Certs are only obtained if you have a quality animal & you know he will be a good competition pony. I would say to you that ponies are kept under fed & dehydrated to make them smaller for measuring. Then after measuring they are fed , watered & exercised to get them back to condition. This practice is never right. It amounts to neglect & the people who carry out this practice are a disgrace & should be prosectued.

Too many people turn a blind eye to this practice, they don't care as long as they get an oversized pony into a smaller class. I don't know how you can defend this practice which is indefencible. As I said before where are all the 14h3" ponies, or aren't there any?

 

[FMM]

it is not the owners who get out the measuring stick for a life height certificate, it is the approved JMB vets. If you have a problem with that, then perhaps you should approach the JMB!

 

[Thistle]

At no point have I stated that I follow these practices.

You are making libellous comments. Apologise or I shall report you to the mods!

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
So would you suggest that she competes as a pony when not fully fit but has to be a horse when fit?


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't recall suggesting anything. I merely questioned how the pony could possibly grow one and a half inches.

 

[FMM]

[ QUOTE ]
At no point have I stated that I follow these practices.

You are making libellous comments. Apologise or I shall report you to the mods!

[/ QUOTE ]

There are no mods on this forum!
It is always a heated debate on heights as only showing and pony jumping people are so paranoid about horse heights that they get their measuring sticks out at every opportunity. Most people will notice if their horse's saddle is not fitting quite as well as it used to (hopefully!) but hardly anyone would notice a centimetre or so on the height of a horse dependant upon its fitness level.

It DOES make a difference if you get your horse measured at the beginning of the year after it has had a 3 month holiday to let it down after the season - probably not 1.5" but a horse in roughed off condition will not only be smaller physically than when it is in show condition in the ring, but it will also LOOK considerably smaller. As I have said many times (sorry to those of you who have read my missives on heights before) but how on EARTH can you tell from 30 feet away whether a horse is 155cm or 157cm. It is just not possible!!!

THe people who complain the most are usualyl those looking for an excuse why they have not won. In years gone past a friend used to moan if there were horses bigger than hers in the jump off that beat her as they were obviously faster and longer striding, and moaned if ponies beat her because they were obviously faster and more nimble.

 

[Santa_Claus]

I in no way condone any dehydrating/starving tactics but I can honestly say I know how much a pony (or horse can change size.)

I will give you one very solid example. Fleur my housemate's horse who I steal was measured by two vets as a 4yo one in holland one in England and they BOTH independantly measured her as 16h2. At the time she was far from fit/muscled etc but was stressed (moving home etc). She now struggles to reach even 16hh as a 6yo. we have a good stick at home which is very accurate and when set to 16hh she was no where touching the stick so she is more 15h3 at max (with shoes). Now you can give both vets an inch so say she was 16h1 minimum when they measured her. Now this means she has shrunk by anywhere between 2 and 3 inches (or 5-7.5cm) in the last 2 years!

Now in reality she hasn't shrunk in the slightest she has just become far more relaxed in her environment. She always 'grows' in either a stressful situation or when collected together or especially at a show. It doesn't mean she is 16h2 it just means she is holding herself up to be 16h2 on these occasions. Its like if standing relaxed i am 170cm (ish) i reckon without raising my feet off the floor I could make myself grow an easy couple of centimetres through stretching my muscles and tensing and according to my posture. Now this doesn't mean I'm 1m72 in the same way Fleur isn't 16h2.

Life height certificates are taken when a pony/horse is in a relaxed environment. I don't agree with purposefully roughing off a pony in order to measure it in but I don't think they must be competition fit, as for whatever reason several often won't be or need to be.

For me height of ponies was never an issue, my 12h2 was infact 124cms, my 14h2s were 13h3 and 14h1 respectively when fully fit!

If you were measuring at competitions how much leeway would you give for shoes? What if a pony is obviously very aggitated etc or even frigtened of the measuring stick requiring a good hour to acclimatise. I know show ponies are often measured at the shows but top dressage/showjumpers are often a completly different type which could result in a lot of ponies being measured out unecessarily.

HOYS already require that all champions are represented to be measured after the show which I think is a very good idea. It was interesting that last years JA winner wasn't presented to be measured as it was known when fit and muscled it wouldn't relax sufficiently and so could have been over. William had also been 2nd so still retained the title (his other pony measured in fine).

I agree though so much on where do you draw the line, You would have to start measuring at a specific time in the day (humans shrink 1cm during the day due to effects of gravity while upright which will have similar effect on a horse), with a minimum hydration level, and a specified fitness level, appropriate hair cut and that they must (not) have been shod x days/weeks beforehand. Basically too much trouble that its worth.

Katie

 

[Thistle]

That god for that!

Thanks Katie, I knew I wasn't talking out of my arse or neglecting or mistreating my ponies!

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
I knew I wasn't talking out of my arse or neglecting or mistreating my ponies!

[/ QUOTE ]

Did anyone accuse you of that? Not that I saw......can't understand why you are being soooo defensive, LOL!!

 

[Zebedee]

At the end of the day people who will resort to any lengths to get their overheight animal measured are cheating, and any sucess they acheive with that animal is worthless.
Whilst I'm sure that no-one on this forum would resort to any form of malpractice to get a horse or pony measured regretably there are those that do. I'm talking dehydration, liberal helpings of ACP,extreme foot trimming (with pony buted to the eyeballs as measuring vets are meant to look-out for such things) etc. I know of more than one instance from more than one yard where people have lost their jobs / rides for taking the horse to the 'wrong vet' to be measured.
We used to show a cob who measured 152cm & had a LHC. Thats 14.3 & 3/4 in english so 15h with shoes. He was quite often dwarfed in affilaited cob classes, & what I found really
amazing (ok I didn't really!) was that the judges didn't place these giants further down the line as not being to to type as per the rule book.
I do think that animals who 'appear' to be overheight should be measured on site with a 1cm allowance for shoes & a further 1cm for being 'sparked up'. Thats nearly an inch - surely a big enough allowance for the largest pony, cob, small hunter etc.
I also think that they should be measured whilst in show condition as that is how they are going to be presented in the ring & therefore that's what should count not when they've been let down for three months.

 

[FMM]

Our show horses are all roughed off after HOYS for 3 months and brought back into work beginning of January. You need an ANNUAL certificate for under 7s so therefore measuring when they are fit in October is no good for the following year. Equally, if a youngster has grown during the break (which often happens), then there is no point spending a fortune preparing it for the ring, getting it fit, then finding you are overheight. Far better to measure and find out you are overheight in January before all the preparation has been done and classes entered for. You cannot affiliate without a valid height certificate anyway. As I said before - who can say with certainly that a horse is 155cm or 157cm from a distance. It is just not possible.

 

[0]

thistle - you have a ''large 14.2'' that ''pretty much measures around 148cm'' at home.
what is a large 14.2?? a 14.3?? there is no such thing as a large 14.2 it either is 14.2 or it isn't.
pretty much measures?? well does it or doesn't it measure 148 - what on earth does 'pretty much' mean? does it mean that really it is a 'large 14.2' and therefore on a bit of a slope etc you can get it to measure in at height????

you'll also find that when horses 'grow' due to being excited it is usually in front of the wither (the way they hold their head) - if they are moving then of course they can move so that they 'look' bigger but when stood still under a stick they cannot 'grow'. the withers are above the shoulder which are above the leg - these are all bone structures and immpossible to acctually grow - yes horses stood still at a show may look bigger but as i say the height from floor to withers will not have actually changed.

 

[ponyowner]

As the owner of the ponies who came 1st and 2nd in last year's 148 class at HOYS I need to correct you.

Firstly, Indien de Here has been successfully presented for re-measurement, comfortably measuring in as we always expected.

Secondly, Colton Maelstrom was not asked to be presented for re-measurement, but actually at home is exactly the same height as our stallion.

Thirdly, the JMB has not consistently applied its policy of measuring all HOYS winners of height restricted classes, since it started this policy in 2002, for whatever reason.

Finally, as owners we have to be able to rely on life height certificates being meaningful when we buy a pony with one. The only way to ensure fair play is that life height certificates are awarded under the same stringent conditions that are applied to re-meaurement under objection. That is not the case today and why there are many "big" ponies out there with life height certificates who would struggle to measure in under objection.

The points made by many about the inconsistency in the height of ponies at any given time is absolutely correct. Even the JMB themselves recognize that changes of 2 cms or more are possible depending upon whether a pony is "truly relaxed" or not, which is why you have to have a consistent environment for measuring a pony (which unfortunately could not be achieved by putting a stick on them at any show).

The overall sentiments expressed on this subject by you all are correct - owners and riders need to be able to know they are competing fairly in height restricted classes. That is not the case today and the policy of objecting to all HOYS winners does not address that issue.

 

[FMM]

I *think* that the only horses measured at HOYS are those which need a height certifictae and have been awarded a life height. I don't think that horses with annual height certificates are remeasured (althoughI may be wrong!)

Therefore if a 4, 5 or 6 year old wins a HOYS championship they do not get remeasured. However, the reserve champion will be measured instead. If they are also not eligible for remeasuring i.e. a large riding horse for example which has no upper height limit, then the second placed small riding horse would be remeasured.

Our cob (Robo) was remeasured after HOYS last year as he won the championship and duly measured in. He is a big upstanding horse and when ridden looks absolutely enormous with his 5 ft 3 rider (pic below). How many of you would say he was only 15.1 (155cm?) and yet he has consistently measured below this height.

Just to add, every time I look at this photo I wonder what the man in the white shirt, second row is doing. Is he yawning or simply open mouthed with astonishment at Robo

 

[TGM]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to add, every time I look at this photo I wonder what the man in the white shirt, second row is doing. Is he yawning or simply open mouthed with astonishment at Robo

[/ QUOTE ] Neither of them - I think the lady sitting next to him has pinched his bum

 

[FMM]

Do you know TGM - I think you could be right!!!

 

[Santa_Claus]

thanks for clearing that up I had gone by what I remembered from the H&H report. Glad to hear he is easily underheight as he is a superb stallion and I think everyone is looking forward to seeing his progeny in action especially the foal i hear you have had by transfer out of Colton. It couldn't have better parents.

 

[Zebedee]

FMM I am well aware of the process of obtaining height certificates, and without a doubt many horses who measure in at 4,5,& 6 measure out by the time they are 7 with absolutely no suggestion of dodgy dealings for them to have measured in prior to that.
However no -one can deny that there are many horses in ALL the disciplines that have any form of height restrictions who at some stage in their careers have found owners who one way or another have bucked the system. I heard of a little horse sold for B.E. events (min height 15h). Imagine the vendors surprise when it appeared on the junior BSJA circuit, qualified for a big competition, wasn't seen out again at an affiliated show until the final, won that, but then disappeared prior to its first compulsory measurement!
I agree it would be very difficult to say with any certainty that something 2cm over was anything more than 'well up to height',( which in itself is a euphonism for 'bl**dy hell that's big! ), hence the need for border -lines to be measured on the day perhaps with allowances as suggested above. If that was to be the case (ha ha ha!) then an independent Steward should decide which horses need re-measuring NOT the judge (for no other reason than they have enough responsibility already

)
I think that the OP was objecting to the number of obviously overheight horses & ponies. Its an on-going problem & will remain so whilst there are still people out there prepared to go to extreme lengths to get their animals to measure in.

As I said before, I sure that none of users of this forum are guilty of any such malpractices.

 

[Zebedee]

Thats a lovely photo of a true cob!

 

[FMM]

I loved having a large riding horse as no measurement is necessary!

 

[Zebedee]

Ditto!

 

[Thistle]

By the way min height for BE is 148cm and you can event a pony min 14hh at Intro and PN on a day ticket.

I have had someone tell me that I took my pony to be measured and it failed - NOT TRUE, she has never been officially measured, but she said it must be true as X told me so. Maybe if you have a problem with the height of a horse/pony then ask it's owner how big it is.

 

[Zebedee]

Yeah right because they'll always tell the truth!!!

Not having a dig at you personally by the way - I'm sure your pony is fine height wise.
Isn't it amazing how so many people think they know whats going on despite all evidence to the contrary? I think that vets have to report the measured heights of all animalas presented for ofica; JMB measuring - pass or fail. Tell your interferring friend to contact the JMB - they'll tell her there's no record of your pony being measured.
Thanks for the info re B.E. It was 15h when I was doing it, but I'm afraid that was before the days of intro & day tickets!