Lightbulb moment

[Charrose77]

So this is supposed to be enjoyable isn’t it? Horse riding/ownership……we do it for pleasure!!! What happens when you suddenly realise you are not having fun?
I bought my mare almost 4 years ago. She was 9 and had a new home (not always purchased, sometimes just placed somewhere to be produced) pretty much every year from 4-9. I knew she wasn’t easy. I knew she didn’t hack alone. I knew she had scared the crap out of the last owner (teenager) to the point that she gave up. I was an absolute idiot and bought her anyway. Long story short…..I hadn’t ridden for 25 years, was desperate to love and own my own again. Tried loads of boring horses and by the time I tried her I was just like “we will be fine, we will work it all out together”. Fast forward nearly 4 years and I have been kicked, bitten, thrown on the floor SO many times that I am close to breaking. She is not outrageously dangerous. She is just sharp and spooky, and a tricky mare. Before you all jump on me I have had all vets checks done (regularly she now has osphos and hocks injected) I am on saddle number 11 (this one is a keeper, we have had it for a year now…..vet and physio are very happy with how she feels). She has physio about every 8-10 weeks and is shod every 5 weeks with pads to make sure she is comfortable up front. I have always been said I will NEVER pass her on. She deserves the best care. I know that horses aren’t nasty on purpose and I have vowed to be her person. But oh my god, I just need a break. I can’t hack alone (she loves hacking in company but is still super sharp and strong, and will go hell for leather if we canter). I can only ride up one end of the school as the “spooky” end I just get decked…..even in walk sometimes. And then every now and then she is totally fine to go large. If I walk her in hand she goes everywhere and licks stuff that she is scared of. She is just petrified when I ride her. I LOVE this little mare. I just want to help her. But I also feel like this should be enjoyable and I can’t seem to find my happy anymore. I am not scared. I fall off and get back on. It’s rubbish, I hurt all over. My osteopath just looks at me like I am weird. I have been researching people like Michael Peace. Does anyone have any ideas. Please don’t just have a go at me. I feel useless enough as it is!!! Thanks in advance

 

[TPO]

Have you got the help of a good trainer?

 

[nikicb]

I am not going to have a go at you, but I really think your mare is trying to tell you that she hurts somewhere. And being ok hacking in company is probably a bit of a 'herd animal' reaction. Vets/physios can't always see what is wrong.

 

[soloequestrian]

My mare was terrible in the school in that she would almost always only work in one small bit of it - the rest was scary (not always the same bit) so we would spend half the time backing off something and half the time going too quickly away from it. Hated it. Put her on Nupafeed MAH a few months ago and she is a different horse in there. She doesn't sound like yours in other areas but might be worth a try.

 

[Charrose77]

[

My mare was terrible in the school in that she would almost always only work in one small bit of it - the rest was scary (not always the same bit) so we would spend half the time backing off something and half the time going too quickly away from it. Hated it. Put her on Nupafeed MAH a few months ago and she is a different horse in there. She doesn't sound like yours in other areas but might be worth a try.

Will give that a go! Thank you. The reviews look very good. Have tried numerous callmers. Oestress helps a little but not enough.

 

[Charrose77]

I am not going to have a go at you, but I really think your mare is trying to tell you that she hurts somewhere. And being ok hacking in company is probably a bit of a 'herd animal' reaction. Vets/physios can't always see what is wrong.

Absolutely re the hacking. I was just mentioning in as it’s not even something I can just take us off and do. I have to wait for someone to hack with me…..not many hackers at current yard. So schooling is not enjoyable, and hacking I can only do when I find someone to go with me. And yes, maybe she hurts somewhere. Totally willing to believe that. But where. I honestly have her checked out regularly and everything looked at. Xrays too. My vet, who is really good, has recently said (twice) that she would pass a 5 stage vetting. Which is amazing as when I first got her he was not happy with how she was at all (and yes, I had a 5 stage vetting….but wasn’t my vet who did it).

 

[soloequestrian]

Yes, I tried 'Sassy Mare' and it had a small effect but Nupafeed has really made a difference. I haven't stopped the Sassy Mare yet though just in case it's additive!

 

[Charrose77]

Have you got the help of a good trainer?

Yes. Wonderful knowledgable trainer. Says the same as any trainer I have seen……she is just tricky!

 

[Charrose77]

Have you got the help of a good trainer?

I have just paid for the TRT method membership as think she needs help to managing her own feelings. But I am also open to getting someone in…..Like Michael Peace to help me. Don’t want to send her off, can’t see the point in that. I want to be part of it so I can manage her going forward.

 

[TPO]

I have just paid for the TRT method membership as think she needs help to managing her own feelings. But I am also open to getting someone in…..Like Michael Peace to help me. Don’t want to send her off, can’t see the point in that. I want to be part of it so I can manage her going forward.

Have a read of the Joe Midgley thread by @Ambers Echo on here. If he's anywhere close to you or you can get to him that would help immensely

 

[Charrose77]

Have a read of the Joe Midgley thread by @Ambers Echo on here. If he's anywhere close to you or you can get to him that would help immensely

Thank you!!!! Will have a read. Much appreciated

 

[Ample Prosecco]

If it’s emotional, Joe can help enormously, but Osphos is a serious (and seriously expensive) drug - usually for navicular. Do you mean Oestress? If someone has prescribed Osphos I assume they are treating a bony disorder.

 

[maya2008]

A friend of mine had a similar horse on her yard. Owner said they thought it was behavioural - turns out physio had said there were issues and when friend sat on it, horse dropped on one side. Pain.

I know someone else with similar issues - horse had fractured their pedal bone. No obvious lameness, just endless tension and decking owner.

And so on. If they are that wound up, something is wrong.

 

[sbloom]

I think TRT/Joe Midgley wouldn't be bad places to start but also have a listen to https://open.spotify.com/episode/47PAsyCcWJGfX3j6drQ05Q?si=JDtM3K8BSHSOCxDGZXs_cA&nd=1&product=open&$full_url=https://open.spotify.com/episode/47PAsyCcWJGfX3j6drQ05Q?si=JDtM3K8BSHSOCxDGZXs_cA&feature=organic&_branch_match_id=1158304896449678000&_branch_referrer=H4sIAAAAAAAAA72N0QqCMABFv2Y+ajmzCCRM0TCixIekF1lz5nJtY5uQf98M+oXgPlzu4XB7Y6Teep6WwtBucpGULqN88HZSiXbEJhKScAf4QTcy1oyKRf2sABgDP7OZsfuzsXjZiUiqRUtsC9aXWE8JvhZ5V8Nn2KpysSoBzDQFMC1Sc4LHzb46VOfknea3Wjc4/n4hxu4ID//4A37IW0uXTkeQGRWJhHogTvEH4qbBohsBAAA= and look up Yasmin Stuart Vet Physio.

 

[Charrose77]

If it’s emotional, Joe can help enormously, but Osphos is a serious (and seriously expensive) drug - usually for navicular. Do you mean Oestress? If someone has prescribed Osphos I assume they are treating a bony disorder.

I mean Osphos. When I had X-rays done she had mild arthritis in her neck c5,6,7 and hocks. We injected. Didn’t make much difference. A little perhaps. Then we tried Osphos and this was better. She has just had the second round of osphos (almost a year later) currently feels fantastic. It’s just the spookiness that I am struggling with. Physically she is the best she has been in nearly 4 years. I really think she needs emotional help……as do I now urgh. I am just feeling sorry for myself. All the younger girls on the yard say “get rid of it” and “why would you bother” but I just can’t. I want to help her. And she won’t retire well to the field, too precious…..shouts her head off to come in when it rains. Doesn’t like the flies when it’s hot. She is high maintenance and I think she would feel like I had abandoned her if I just turned her away. Will have a read of your thread. Thank you

 

[Charrose77]

I think TRT/Joe Midgley wouldn't be bad places to start but also have a listen to https://open.spotify.com/episode/47PAsyCcWJGfX3j6drQ05Q?si=JDtM3K8BSHSOCxDGZXs_cA&nd=1&product=open&$full_url=https://open.spotify.com/episode/47PAsyCcWJGfX3j6drQ05Q?si=JDtM3K8BSHSOCxDGZXs_cA&feature=organic&_branch_match_id=1158304896449678000&_branch_referrer=H4sIAAAAAAAAA72N0QqCMABFv2Y+ajmzCCRM0TCixIekF1lz5nJtY5uQf98M+oXgPlzu4XB7Y6Teep6WwtBucpGULqN88HZSiXbEJhKScAf4QTcy1oyKRf2sABgDP7OZsfuzsXjZiUiqRUtsC9aXWE8JvhZ5V8Nn2KpysSoBzDQFMC1Sc4LHzb46VOfknea3Wjc4/n4hxu4ID//4A37IW0uXTkeQGRWJhHogTvEH4qbBohsBAAA= and look up Yasmin Stuart Vet Physio.

Thank you. I will have a listen. You have met Fern! We met at Nodwood. I came with Helen who was desperately trying to help me saddle her. She is physically in a much better place than back then. Her asymmetry vastly improved also!!!! She is just tense. Perhaps from years of pain/discomfort. Needs to let it go.

 

[Charrose77]

I think TRT/Joe Midgley wouldn't be bad places to start but also have a listen to https://open.spotify.com/episode/47PAsyCcWJGfX3j6drQ05Q?si=JDtM3K8BSHSOCxDGZXs_cA&nd=1&product=open&$full_url=https://open.spotify.com/episode/47PAsyCcWJGfX3j6drQ05Q?si=JDtM3K8BSHSOCxDGZXs_cA&feature=organic&_branch_match_id=1158304896449678000&_branch_referrer=H4sIAAAAAAAAA72N0QqCMABFv2Y+ajmzCCRM0TCixIekF1lz5nJtY5uQf98M+oXgPlzu4XB7Y6Teep6WwtBucpGULqN88HZSiXbEJhKScAf4QTcy1oyKRf2sABgDP7OZsfuzsXjZiUiqRUtsC9aXWE8JvhZ5V8Nn2KpysSoBzDQFMC1Sc4LHzb46VOfknea3Wjc4/n4hxu4ID//4A37IW0uXTkeQGRWJhHogTvEH4qbBohsBAAA= and look up Yasmin Stuart Vet Physio.

And yes. I have already contacted Yasmin who is going to come back to me with dates

 

[Charrose77]

A friend of mine had a similar horse on her yard. Owner said they thought it was behavioural - turns out physio had said there were issues and when friend sat on it, horse dropped on one side. Pain.

I know someone else with similar issues - horse had fractured their pedal bone. No obvious lameness, just endless tension and decking owner.

And so on. If they are that wound up, something is wrong.

It’s really hard to explain. She can be totally relaxed at times. I no absolutely hear what you are saying re pain and I am constantly exploring that. But I do think with her a lot if her troubles are mental rather than physical now. Probably brought on by the original physical pain. I have tracked down most people who have ever known/had her. Her breeders assistant said she was tricky from a foal and you always had to have your wits about you. She never had a problem with her but said some if the younger girls did.

 

[TPO]

mean Osphos. When I had X-rays done she had mild arthritis in her neck c5,6,7 and hocks. We injected. Didn’t make much difference. A little perhaps. Then we tried Osphos and this was better. She has just had the second round of osphos (almost a year later) currently feels fantastic.

Neck arthritis changes things. Sorry, but I'm going with pain. Have you done a bute trial?

 

[Dexter]

It’s really hard to explain. She can be totally relaxed at times. I no absolutely hear what you are saying re pain and I am constantly exploring that. But I do think with her a lot if her troubles are mental rather than physical now. Probably brought on by the original physical pain. I have tracked down most people who have ever known/had her. Her breeders assistant said she was tricky from a foal and you always had to have your wits about you. She never had a problem with her but said some if the younger girls did.

The horse is in pain. I'm not even sure you need to go looking for other causes. You have problems with the feet and neck. Thats enough to cause the reaction you describe. Please listen to her, she cant scream any louder that she doesn't want to do this.

 

[ycbm]

When I had X-rays done she had mild arthritis in her neck c5,6,7

I think she may be trying to tell you that this arthritis, which is in the whole bottom half of her neck, is more of an issue than the x rays would suggest.

Her behaviour sounds quite like my TB who had arthritis at C5/6/7, only he was stoic and it took me a while to realise. The fact yours was a tricky foal just means she makes her feelings about pain more clear, please listen to her.

ETA, trainers also told me my horse was "just being a thoroughbred". I'm so glad I didn't listen to them.
.

 

[Charrose77]

It’s really hard to explain. She can be totally relaxed at times. I no absolutely hear what you are saying re pain and I am constantly exploring that. But I do think with her a lot if her troubles are mental rather than physical now. Probably brought on by the original physical pain. I have tracked down most people who have ever known/had her. Her breeders assistant said she was tricky from a foal and you always had to have your wits about you. She never had a problem with her but said some if the younger girls did.

Neck arthritis changes things. Sorry, but I'm going with pain. Have you done a bute trial?

no. Neither vet nor physio have suggested. They both know the horse very well. But I will discuss

 

[sbloom]

It’s really hard to explain. She can be totally relaxed at times.

This is very common with what are thought to be nerve impingement issues, very on-off and very sharp, through to violent, reactions. Fingers crossed Yasmin can help you get to the bottom of it.

The issues with C6 and 7 that are being diagnosed are likely to be not just congenital as the latest research shows, but also through birth trauma or through any other reason for the thoracic sling being dysfunctional. If we don't treat this (and it's rare it's even seen as such, so early treatment is rare) then the arthritis is more likely. Science isn't looking into this as much as the answers aren't surgical or medical.

Treat any change in the way of going or reactivity seriously, most serious conditions start with tiny changes then progressive deterioration which can be fast or slow.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would bet the farm your horse is varying degrees of discomfort the whole time .

I would either give up or start with a bone scan to get an over view of what’s going on .

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Yes I am really sorry but I also thought nerve impingement, leading to unpredictably explosive issues. I had a pony who was Jekyll and Hyde. He was angelic, then explosive. No vet ever found anything wrong. Everyone said it was behavioural. And/or related to my daughters' lack of experience riding him, as he was bought as their first pony. 'He's taking the mick out of inexperienced kids' was the prevailing view. Eventually he went intermittently, then permanently lame and was PTS. I think he was reacting to pain all along in retrospect. But some sort of intermittent condition where you go from pain free to sudden acute pain instantly, which resolves just as quickly. Ie nerve impingement. That explanation is consistent with the arthritic changes too.

Vets seem to reluctant to suggest pain unless there is something clear to see on imaging, or the horse is lame. But how many human pain conditions are invisible and only identifiable because we can communicate that we are in pain?

Anticipatory pain is definitely, real, but you'd expect it to be predictable, linked to a trigger. Lottie had anticipatory pain around the girth. Pretty dramatic reactions but it was obviously anticipatory. If you massaged that area firmly away from a girthing context, she did not react. But she grimaced and bit air if you put your hand near her girth area, before you even touched her. We got rid of it in a few days by placing a hand on the place she was worried about and leaving it there till she stopped reacting, then releasing. Repeating a few times. Her reactions went from dramatic for about 5 seconds to mild for about 1 second, to no reaction at all, over about 10 reps on each side. Repeated for a few days and now there is no reaction at all. Anticipatory pain arises because the horse remembers and expects pain in a specific context/or a specific place - so that does not fit with the unpredictability you are describing.

I hope you find an answer.

 

[scats]

Horses like this generally have a reason for it, particularly if they seem far braver and more relaxed about things in hand. Either there is a physical issue going on, or something has happened under saddle or gone wrong at some point with her training.

As someone who has just had a serious accident and came close to losing my foot, please have a think about whether it’s safe to continue to get ‘decked’ all the time. It only takes one fall to change everything.

 

[sbloom]

Vets seem to reluctant to suggest pain unless there is something clear to see on imaging, or the horse is lame. But how many human pain conditions are invisible and only identifiable because we can communicate that we are in pain?

Yes yes yes. So many issues.are on a scale and wont be diagnosable by a vet until the damage is more serious and therefore image-able.

The crucial thing to understand is that, in many cases, if you identify these types of issues soon enough, there's a chance of reversing the problems. Nerve impingement isn't the same as nerve damage....yet. It's just that it's not vet treatment, it's finding a bodyworker and rehabber than can work on this over time.

 

[Red-1]

I would go with real pain too. The horse is already known to be compromised physically.

I, for years, had awful pain in my left hip and down the outside of my leg. I had numbness and it would give way.

I had X rays, nerve conduction tests, 2 sets of MRIs... all clear.

The doctor wanted to out me on anti depressants. I wasn't depressed, I was fed up that I had so much pain, yes, but not depressed in a way that medication would help.

Sometimes pain is real even if a cause can't be found.

 

[sbloom]

Thank you. I will have a listen. You have met Fern! We met at Nodwood. I came with Helen who was desperately trying to help me saddle her. She is physically in a much better place than back then. Her asymmetry vastly improved also!!!! She is just tense. Perhaps from years of pain/discomfort. Needs to let it go.

So sorry I'm on phone and missed this! And the bits about hocks and front feet...it ALL points to posture and compensatory movement patterns. I would strongly recommend you join the Celeste programme, you may be facing too much to achieve a turnaround but it will help at least some, you'll learn a ton too. If you want to drop.me a pm I can have a look back at my records, that day at Norwood was very unfortunate that we had way too much to do with me not far enough along in my training with the new brand. It was sad it led nowhere

 

[Charrose77]

Horses like this generally have a reason for it, particularly if they seem far braver and more relaxed about things in hand. Either there is a physical issue going on, or something has happened under saddle or gone wrong at some point with her training.

As someone who has just had a serious accident and came close to losing my foot, please have a think about whether it’s safe to continue to get ‘decked’ all the time. It only takes one fall to change everything.

I am glad to hear you didn’t lose your foot. And hope you are recovering well. I absolutely agree, and am so aware how things can change. I am “not young” and don’t bounce. It hurts, I don’t want to fall off anymore believe me. I fell yesterday for the first time in a long time, from walk…..it was cold, and windy, she was already tense…..someone came round the corner with a wheelbarrow just as we passed her spooky place in the school. It was just one of those things. And yes she is so relaxed in hand. I can take her to the spooky places and she will rummage around licking and nudging everything. Get on her take her to the same spot and she is backing off, spinning etc. take her up the nice end of the school and she works lovely. I don’t that is pain. I am not saying she has never been in pain. But the behaviour I am dealing with doesn’t seem like pain to me. If we are out and have to pass a huge piece of machinery on a narrow lane I would be potentially in trouble if I stayed on her. She would most likely spin and go as we got part of the way past. If I get off and walk her past she is fine (still tense, but she will stay with me and we will get past safely). Then I get back on and we carry on.