Line breeding ... how close?

[jumpergirl]

I am trying to pick a stallion for next yr and just wondered what everyone's thoughts are on line breeding. The stallion I am seriously considering for my mare would leave the foal with Cor de la Bryere as great grandsire on both sides and also Landgraf as great grandsire on one side and great great grandsire on the other side.

What do you think?

 

[Eothain]

I see no problem. All you're doing is doubling up on a good thing!!!

 

[amage]

TBH I would consider it too close and don't agree with the above statement that you are doubling up on a good thing...you could actually be doubling up on the negatives of the breeding. There is a huge amount of stallions available and breeding for versatility will produce saleable youngstock. You could get a cracking foal or you could get a dud...now I know that can happen no matter what you breed to but given the vast numbers of quality stallions available these days why not bring variety to your bloodlines. Pick something with the same aspects that you like in this horse but with some different breeding.

 

[jumpergirl]

My problem is that my mare has impeccable bloodlines for jumping and I have been advised to go down the L lines in order to produce more elasticity. I am aiming to produce top class showjumpers and am really struggling to find something in the L lines that is both top class in movement and jump that doesnt have Landgraf or Cor de la Bryere in. I'm open to suggestions if you know of any. Needs to be KWPN or Oldenburg but preferably Oldenburg.

 

[cumbriamax]

I don't personally agree with line breeding but you are not breeding too close , a neighbour of mine (who shall remain nameless) bred her stallion with its own dam and she got show winning stock but two that she bred have had similar problems.

 

[JenniferS]

If you look at how the Welshies are bred, it's often half brother with half sister! I think you'll be fine

 

[KarynK]

So you are looking at a 3x3 on Cor de la Bryere and a 3x4 on Landgraf. This would in TB terms be an inbreeding on these two and would be quite common in TB breeding. More top level TB's are inbred in this way than outcrosses. Inbreeding has been used for century's by humans to fix type and whilst yes you can come across the odd bad gene this is a low likelihood in light of the huge number of horses that are inbred.

In fact you could go as far as to say that the modern TB along with many other breeds would not exist as we know them without in and line breeding techniques. Nor would the TB have had such a role in forming other breeds.

As an illustration 2010 Arc and Epsom Derby Winner Workforce is inbred 3x5 on Northern Dancer through the half brothers Nureyev and Saddlers wells, 5x5 on Native Dancer through half brother and sister Raise a Native and Natalma and on the mare Special Through half brother and sister Nureyev and Fairy Bridge. He is quite heavily line bred on both Pharos (1920) (8x8x8x6x9x9x9x9x9x9x8) and Swynford (1907) (9x9x9x9x8x8x8x9x9x9x9) amongst others!

This shows that in fact a lot of horses within a breed are Line bred quite intensely people just don't realise as they rarely look deeper than the 5th or 6th generation. for example TB Sea The Stars is the result of an outcross pedigree in the first five generations but is heavily line bred principaly on Teddy (1913) (9x 9x 9x 9x 9x 7x 8x 8x 8x 9x 9x 8x 8) along with the likes of Pharos and his father Phalaris.

Providing that these lines are not known to possess any problem genes then this form of breeding can produce better performers than outcross pedigrees. In fact walking around my field is another good example of how in and line breeding can work she is bred 2x5 and 3x4.

 

[jumpergirl]

Thanks guys. I think I will go for it!

 

[magic104]

Just use some common sense if both parents have the same faults, avoid it, otherwise as already stated it is common to use this to fix type. It can be seen as again stated Welsh, TB's along with QH's, Arabs, & plenty of others.

 

[Touchwood]

Great post KarynK - line breeding is a great tool if used properly. It helps to replicate traits with more reliability, but this goes for negative traits as well as positive, so make sure you are well informed about the lines you are using!

 

[Flyingbuck]

Great to dispel some of the myths, karynk - very interesting - thanks.

 

[KarynK]

No problem we can learn a lot from TB's they have after all been at it quite a while, but you do have to bear in mind that racers are a performance only breed and there is a lot of wastage and a lot of the time traits that do not affect speed are not considered (parrot mouth, springs to mind!). But apart from that over the past few century's they have shown that it can work. It is interesting that a lot of the time they in breed on something that is itself inbred.

I think that is important for breeders to consider what is further back in a pedigree as well for line breeding in the 8th or 9th generation on something below standard could be as problematic as one closer up. It is no bad thing to get in the habit of looking not only at the mare and stallion but at the grandparents and great grandparents as well!!