Tia
Well-Known Member
What are your thoughts on this?
Line Breeding
- Thread starter Tia
- Start date
henryhorn
Well-Known Member
I don't know Tia what is it? Do you mean as in keeping to a certain bloodline?
Patches
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I can get my head around the idea personally...bit like incest isn't it. Goes against the grain of everything we learn to think of as morally acceptable. We're told if we go with our siblings or let our cat get pregnant by her Tom kitty that we'll have babies of the three eyed, three legged variety...both human and feline.
It's widely believed by most of the large cat rescue societies that large feral colonies of cats, whilst seeming to be healthy at one point, can almost suddenly die out. The cause is not reported to be diseases and illness.....but the fact that they are so inbred that eventually they suffer organ failure from congenital abnormalities borne out of the fact that there is too much of the same blood, literally, in their system.
However, it is done. You only have to look at the Welsh Pony's past generations to witness to what extent line breeding was carried out. With the advent of AI and transport being more readily available to the masses, I guess the old "closed herd" philosphy is now lost. People can "cover" mares with horses standing in different countries and indeed no longer living with AI. An option not open to the horsemen of old I'm sure. It's still done to a certain degree, just a lesser level.
Look how often Downland Chevalier appears in Talis's chart, over two generations and on both his sire and dam's side.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/reylem+tomboy
Yes it was some time ago, but it was no different back then, to how it would feel for you right now. I just think public interest and attitude towards breeding has shifted.
Some would say that modern day horses and ponies are so diluted from their relevant breed standards, that they are almost unrecognisable from the equines of old. Could the most likely cause for this be because of a shift away from line breeding, which protected the purest forms of the breed. Take Tweenie, she's not a "traditional" leg at each corner, mini cob Section A. She's a more modern, finer boned "attempt at a riding pony" section A.
Sometimes I think too many horses are left entire. The cream of the crop of each breed are all that should be left entire. All the foals born would no doubt be a better quality stock.
I feel I'm on a soapbox, rambling about something I know nothing about!!!
It's widely believed by most of the large cat rescue societies that large feral colonies of cats, whilst seeming to be healthy at one point, can almost suddenly die out. The cause is not reported to be diseases and illness.....but the fact that they are so inbred that eventually they suffer organ failure from congenital abnormalities borne out of the fact that there is too much of the same blood, literally, in their system.
However, it is done. You only have to look at the Welsh Pony's past generations to witness to what extent line breeding was carried out. With the advent of AI and transport being more readily available to the masses, I guess the old "closed herd" philosphy is now lost. People can "cover" mares with horses standing in different countries and indeed no longer living with AI. An option not open to the horsemen of old I'm sure. It's still done to a certain degree, just a lesser level.
Look how often Downland Chevalier appears in Talis's chart, over two generations and on both his sire and dam's side.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/reylem+tomboy
Yes it was some time ago, but it was no different back then, to how it would feel for you right now. I just think public interest and attitude towards breeding has shifted.
Some would say that modern day horses and ponies are so diluted from their relevant breed standards, that they are almost unrecognisable from the equines of old. Could the most likely cause for this be because of a shift away from line breeding, which protected the purest forms of the breed. Take Tweenie, she's not a "traditional" leg at each corner, mini cob Section A. She's a more modern, finer boned "attempt at a riding pony" section A.
Sometimes I think too many horses are left entire. The cream of the crop of each breed are all that should be left entire. All the foals born would no doubt be a better quality stock.
I feel I'm on a soapbox, rambling about something I know nothing about!!!
Tia
Well-Known Member
Yes that's right. Where they interbreed closely related horses.
One of my boarders was talking about it this evening due to my new and very wanted beautiful member of our clan. He has a line bred horse and started to suggest this to me
.
I understand the principles BUT I just cannot get my head around it at all and it isn't something that I could ever enter into, so I told him this and I think he was actually shocked that I could hold it in such low consideration, LOL!!
One of my boarders was talking about it this evening due to my new and very wanted beautiful member of our clan. He has a line bred horse and started to suggest this to me
I understand the principles BUT I just cannot get my head around it at all and it isn't something that I could ever enter into, so I told him this and I think he was actually shocked that I could hold it in such low consideration, LOL!!
Patches
Well-Known Member
Past the edit time...
but all of the coloured bars that correspond on Talis's chart relate to the same horse used at varying times.
Half brothers and sisters, one damn Love in the Mist I think it is, is used four times for the same generation line covering both sides of his perdigree.
Line breeding from his chart (and indeed Tweenies) is noticeably absent in the more recent years.
but all of the coloured bars that correspond on Talis's chart relate to the same horse used at varying times.
Half brothers and sisters, one damn Love in the Mist I think it is, is used four times for the same generation line covering both sides of his perdigree.
Line breeding from his chart (and indeed Tweenies) is noticeably absent in the more recent years.
Tia
Well-Known Member
Absolutely excellent post Patches!! You have put into words exactly what I feel about it.
Is there any need for line breeding in today's society I wonder? There are so many high profile and quality animals these days that it probably isn't necessary like it was many years ago.
Is there any need for line breeding in today's society I wonder? There are so many high profile and quality animals these days that it probably isn't necessary like it was many years ago.
Patches
Well-Known Member
I don't think it is as necessary. Many moons ago the breeders wouldn't have had much in the way of regular transport, much less horse boxes to take mares to stud. I've no idea when AI for horses was started either. I would think the most old horsemen of old did was use a stallion from a neighbouring herd.
I think the Welsh ponies are long noted for being very interbred, which lets face it, is just another name for linebreeding.
I think the Welsh ponies are long noted for being very interbred, which lets face it, is just another name for linebreeding.
meandmyself
Well-Known Member
I think it can help 'fix' certian things in a horse/breed. Say you really like one horse, so you breed that horse back to it's sire/dam. You'd be 'fixing' the characteristics into the foal.
Sorry, not very well explained!
Sorry, not very well explained!
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Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I think too many horses are left entire. The cream of the crop of each breed are all that should be left entire. All the foals born would no doubt be a better quality stock.
[/ QUOTE ]
100% absolutely agree with this. We need regulation on what stock can be kept entire!
Also bugs me when people breed from their mares because they can't be ridden anymore. Mares should only be bred from if they are good enough, never because there is nothing else for them to do!
Not keen on Line breeding - Patches pretty much summed up my reasoning.
Also agree about horses moving away from original breed standards but I think that is mainly due to the ever incresing trend of crossing breeds to get the best of both (and still being able to register with pure societies - I know Welshies have the part bred section but other societies don't). If you look at the pedigree's of TB's bred for racing (IE not necasserily any line breeding but certainly nothing but TB's) you will see much less change in the horses over the years than in other breeds. At one time pure bred horses were thought to be better than crosses but that is no longer the case. In many years to come there will probably be few distinctive types of horse due to this.
Sometimes I think too many horses are left entire. The cream of the crop of each breed are all that should be left entire. All the foals born would no doubt be a better quality stock.
[/ QUOTE ]
100% absolutely agree with this. We need regulation on what stock can be kept entire!
Also bugs me when people breed from their mares because they can't be ridden anymore. Mares should only be bred from if they are good enough, never because there is nothing else for them to do!
Not keen on Line breeding - Patches pretty much summed up my reasoning.
Also agree about horses moving away from original breed standards but I think that is mainly due to the ever incresing trend of crossing breeds to get the best of both (and still being able to register with pure societies - I know Welshies have the part bred section but other societies don't). If you look at the pedigree's of TB's bred for racing (IE not necasserily any line breeding but certainly nothing but TB's) you will see much less change in the horses over the years than in other breeds. At one time pure bred horses were thought to be better than crosses but that is no longer the case. In many years to come there will probably be few distinctive types of horse due to this.
Patches
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I think it can help 'fix' certian things in a horse/breed. Say you really like one horse, so you breed that horse back to it's sire/dam. You'd be 'fixing' the characteristics into the foal.
Sorry, not very well explained!
[/ QUOTE ]
I think I get what you mean there....although I must admit to knowing nothing about beeding myself.
The only thing I don't understand there though is how does the desirable trait stay fixed, so to speak, if you then go on to breed away from a direct sire/damn pairing? Surely over time it's diluted by other genes again? There's also the question of the time scale you'd have to wait to be able to put a foal back to one of it's parents.
As humans, and the morals we learn, it sounds bizarre to breed parents and their offspring doesn't it? I am pretty sure it's done more than we think though.
Wasn't interbreeding blamed as the cause of "rage syndrome" (I think that was the condition) in Black Cocker Spaniels some years back? I seem to remember something being said to me by breeders "in the know" when I had my black Cocker Spaniel puppy some 11 years ago.
I think it can help 'fix' certian things in a horse/breed. Say you really like one horse, so you breed that horse back to it's sire/dam. You'd be 'fixing' the characteristics into the foal.
Sorry, not very well explained!
[/ QUOTE ]
I think I get what you mean there....although I must admit to knowing nothing about beeding myself.
The only thing I don't understand there though is how does the desirable trait stay fixed, so to speak, if you then go on to breed away from a direct sire/damn pairing? Surely over time it's diluted by other genes again? There's also the question of the time scale you'd have to wait to be able to put a foal back to one of it's parents.
As humans, and the morals we learn, it sounds bizarre to breed parents and their offspring doesn't it? I am pretty sure it's done more than we think though.
Wasn't interbreeding blamed as the cause of "rage syndrome" (I think that was the condition) in Black Cocker Spaniels some years back? I seem to remember something being said to me by breeders "in the know" when I had my black Cocker Spaniel puppy some 11 years ago.
meandmyself
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it can help 'fix' certian things in a horse/breed. Say you really like one horse, so you breed that horse back to it's sire/dam. You'd be 'fixing' the characteristics into the foal.
Sorry, not very well explained!
[/ QUOTE ]
I think I get what you mean there....although I must admit to knowing nothing about beeding myself.
The only thing I don't understand there though is how does the desirable trait stay fixed, so to speak, if you then go on to breed away from a direct sire/damn pairing? Surely over time it's diluted by other genes again? There's also the question of the time scale you'd have to wait to be able to put a foal back to one of it's parents.
As humans, and the morals we learn, it sounds bizarre to breed parents and their offspring doesn't it? I am pretty sure it's done more than we think though.
Wasn't interbreeding blamed as the cause of "rage syndrome" (I think that was the condition) in Black Cocker Spaniels some years back? I seem to remember something being said to me by breeders "in the know" when I had my black Cocker Spaniel puppy some 11 years ago.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how is stys fixed- half remembering my breeding lectures at collage lol!
I think it's done a lot in the USA, and not so much here. I don't think I could do it TBH.
Yup, Rage syndrome in cockers! I'd hear that it happened in Red dogs too.
ETA- decent article here on linebreeding- http://www.netpets.com/cats/reference/info/inbreed.html
[ QUOTE ]
I think it can help 'fix' certian things in a horse/breed. Say you really like one horse, so you breed that horse back to it's sire/dam. You'd be 'fixing' the characteristics into the foal.
Sorry, not very well explained!
[/ QUOTE ]
I think I get what you mean there....although I must admit to knowing nothing about beeding myself.
The only thing I don't understand there though is how does the desirable trait stay fixed, so to speak, if you then go on to breed away from a direct sire/damn pairing? Surely over time it's diluted by other genes again? There's also the question of the time scale you'd have to wait to be able to put a foal back to one of it's parents.
As humans, and the morals we learn, it sounds bizarre to breed parents and their offspring doesn't it? I am pretty sure it's done more than we think though.
Wasn't interbreeding blamed as the cause of "rage syndrome" (I think that was the condition) in Black Cocker Spaniels some years back? I seem to remember something being said to me by breeders "in the know" when I had my black Cocker Spaniel puppy some 11 years ago.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how is stys fixed- half remembering my breeding lectures at collage lol!
I think it's done a lot in the USA, and not so much here. I don't think I could do it TBH.
Yup, Rage syndrome in cockers! I'd hear that it happened in Red dogs too.
ETA- decent article here on linebreeding- http://www.netpets.com/cats/reference/info/inbreed.html
emmajanerushton
Well-Known Member
Line Breeding when it goes well, In Breeding when it doesnt, think can make for a pony/horse with a screw loose for no other reason !!
Sooty
Well-Known Member
I tried line dancing much but didn't like it, is line breeding also done in rows with dreadful music and weird boots?
Kermie
Well-Known Member
I see line breeding as breeding when there are common great grandsires, great grand-dams, etc. I don't have a problem with that as they are a couple of generations back. I wouldn't breed when the mare and stallion share the same sire/grandsire and/or dam/grand-dam though (which I see as inbreeding). I think that is a recipe for temperament problems.
Tia
Well-Known Member
Tia
Well-Known Member
Me too.
Mid
Well-Known Member
DISAGREE. Look at America's Arabians. They boast about having Bask blood six times on both sides o______o Wrongwrongwrong.