Liver Damage

JGKJ

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Hi All.

I have been posting the last few months regarding my ponys problems with balance etc and his subsequesnt diagnosis of Cushing's disease.

Right, ok this could be quite lenghty but please bear with me as the whole thing is really starting to make sense now.

In early December my pony had a blob of blood in one pile of Droppings and in his urine so promptly got the vet out who took bloods, and the results were fairly in-conclusive but he suggested we put him on the 5 day Panacur Equi-Guard worming course and also anit-biotics. He went on this and seemed ok, no more blood at all, then literally just after he finished the wormer, he suddenly went very poorly over night. His symptoms were that he was very very unsteady on all legs, seemed spooked at his feed bucket etc, and also very unbalanced ie, he couldnt shake his head or move quicky without nearly falling over, and doing so on some occasions. Had the vet out again and he wanted to put him to sleep but we wanted to know what was going on with him before we made that decision, but the vet was pretty much useless and offered no explanation at all! We then suggested that he should test him for Cushing's disease which came back positive at the beginning of January. During this period Kelly made slow, but positive progress. The vet said he needed to be put on Pergolide, and was started on 500mcg a day. He was on this dosage for approx 1 month but we werent seeing any massive improvements, so the vet suggested we upped him to 750mcg, and within a fortnight he was really picking up, and amazingly his balance issues had completely gone. But the last week or so, Kelly has really gone off his hard feed, and when it was worming time at the weekend (double dose Strongid-P) we split into 2 doses, one on Friday and one on Saturday, and bizzarely by Sunday afternoon, he was back to exactly how he was in December, complete lack of co-ordination, wobbling all over the place, and he had fallen down. On Sunday night he was acting a bit Colicy so had the vet out at 11pm who gave him and Anti-Spasmodic. By next morning his his Colic had cleared up, it was a very mild dose really, but he was still in a very bad way ie was wobbling all over the shop and fell down, spooked at feed bucket, all the same as he was in December. Got the vet out again, she gave him a Multi-Vit injection. She also took his temp which was 39.6 so she left anti-biotics. She had no idea what was wrong with him at all.

Have been doing some research and it turns out that Kellys symptoms and the link between worming both times, it could well be that Kelly has liver damage and was struggling to cope with the levels of wormer.

It all starts to make sense now!

Does anyone know much about Liver Damage? I have very little knowledge and once again i am left to do the research as the vets dont seem to have any answers!
 

siennamum

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My first suggestion would be to change your vet.
The symptoms you described should have resulted in a check for liver damage, and if found to be the case then you should have wormed with extreme caution. Spaniel can give further information about horses which react badly to wormers and what your alternatives are, it might be worth PMing her. I know a couple of animals who are hale & hearty with this but they do require careful management. Likewise the Cushings, you really need a vet who can give sensible advice.
 

OWLIE185

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I would get your horse refered to a centre of excellence such as The Royal vet College or one of the three major practices in Newmarket.

Normally for Cushings you would not give more than 250 microgram of Pergolide as anything above that will make them dozy.

Worming is all very well but you need to worm for emerging encysted Red worm as these can not be picked up in a worm count. Get a worm count done two weeks after worming the horse just to see if any other worms are present. Get a blood test donbe to determine if there are any emerging encysted red worms.
 

ru-fi-do

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Get a second opinion! My mare hasn't been as bad as your horse but back in October she went through a faze of colic's and also colic'ed after worming, she also seem very dull and depressed in herself. My vet came out and took bloods from her to do a full blood count, her liver enzymes came back high (gamma ones I think) They were 300 and something, should be 60, we gave her global herbs 'Restore' which is like a detox which did seem to brighten her up consiquently(sp?) her blood count came down to 220. She was having regular blood tests and basically they keep going up and down, vet advised me to put her on a B vitamin supplement and milk thistle as these aid the liver. 3 Weeks ago we had her bloods done again so decided on a liver biopsy, she went in two weeks ago but unfortunatley the sample wasn't very clear so she is going in again next week. The vet did take her bloods again last week and the have come down very slightly, we are still going to go ahead with the biopsy though as it 'may' tell us exactly what is going on, although the liver is a vast area and you may biopsy a 'good' bit. You case sounds a lot more serious but maybe a liver biopsy would be an idea, did they say anything about liver function from the blood tests, maybe they could do a full blood count for everything?? You could always talk to them about B vitamins also and global herbs Restore, global herbs are very helpfull if you ring them. Also milk thistle wouldn't do any harm i don't think. I would be very interested to find out the outcome of this and have everything crossed for you.
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JGKJ

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Hi. Thanks for your replies, they're very interesting, and noticed a few more Liver topics cropping up! It seems to be hard to find much info but have emailed a very helpful person who has their own worming egg count thingy, they've been very helpful offering advice, and about trying to keep the protein levels down in his diet as much as poss so his liver doesnt have lots to cope with, so having to sort through feeds etc. Yes have heard about this Milk Thistle so will be getting some of that.

The vet is coming out to do some blood tests, i really am interested to get a 2nd opinion, and i will definatly if they continue to be about as much as use as a chocolate teapot ( in terms of offering me any explanations). Clearly they dont treat elderly horses here as they had never treated a horse with Cushing's before, and they just seem to want to put him to sleep 'cus hes old' uhhh vets i really hate them sometimes, and theyre so intimidating!
 

henryhorn

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I don't know anything about cushings but we have had a mare with a similar reaction to worming.
She arrived as a livery and as always we wormed her with panacur guard over five days. She collapsed after three days and had similar symptoms to your horse.
My vet referred her to Bristol Animal Hospital and they found long term worm damage, the symptoms they thought were the result of pain when the large number of red worms emerged through the gut walls, and she even had peritonitis at one point.
It took weeks and she came back very thin, we kept a close eye on her after that and her worming regime was actually more frequent than normal, and she gained weight again and bred two foals.
It turned out her owner had only ever wormed her with wormers beginning with the letter E and they had killed the first batch of worms but always missed the second lot that emerge from the stomach wall five days later.
The other horse we had with liver disease didn't show any symptoms other than being incredibly placid to handle, he had accessed ragwort at some stage and died as a haemophiliac when gelded.
I think your horse is now supersensitive to wormers, and you need to perhaps do worm counts instead, and only worm when he really needs it. (and with whatever the vet advises)
 

JGKJ

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Hi Again.

Just to let you all know that i had the vet out this morning to take bloods and it has come back that Kelly now has Liver faliure, obviously beyond help. Im absolutely devestated and just cant even belive this is happening and so soon, got to make all necessary arrangements within the next few days.

I cant really say to much im just in a state of shock at the moment. I will write more when ive come to terms with it myself, but thankyou all for your kind words and help.
 

miniemy

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I am so sorry to hear about your horse. I lost my beautiful mare to Liver damage in Feb last year.

I can understand your pain, however watching my horse in the final stages of liver damage is something i would never wish on anyone, so all I can offer you in this difficult time is please dont hang around with making your plans.

Big hugs to you and your horse.

Emma
 

ru-fi-do

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Very sorry to hear about your horse, my 25year old pony had the start of liver damage but unfortunatley died from colic. Thoughts are with you I know you must be feeling it is very hard
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