Liver failure/disease

Talism4n

Talism4n

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Hi all,

Does anyone have any experience of horses with liver failure? My boy has just had bloods come back indicating diseased liver, apparently it's fairly mild at this point, but given the symptoms that caused me to call the vet, I think this is the second flare up in about a year. I'm utterly hysterical, he's my horse of a lifetime and the source of all my sanity. I've never come across liver issues before so I'm looking for any advice on where to start with treating this, and I'd love to hear any stories of horses surviving with this for any great length of time. My vet has said it's too early to suggest a life expectancy at this stage, but I'm panicking and fearing the worst.

Huge thanks to anyone who reads this.
 
Yep old boy had it. We had problems with his white hind legs being scabby, oozing pus, swollen etc and no matter what we did it didn't get better. Turns out it was photosensitisation. His liver was damaged. Vet said we could take a biopsy but that was invasive and wouldn't actually change treatment or outcome. So we didn't do it. He would have been late 20's then. He had a course of antibiotics and that was it. Once we worked out it was the sun he went out in a fly mask and turnout socks or fly socks. We had to be very careful about sun exposure but I am sure the liver healed itself and several years later he had blood tests showing back to normal. He lived to 38.
 
Your vet should be advising on what treatment is required and may give an idea on the cause so you can have a plan to try and prevent it happening again once treatment is underway, I bought one a few years ago that had been successfully treated and apart from being a bit careful with his diet he was treated no differently from my others. He had a low protein diet with NO oil allowed, we do not have any ragwort here, a major cause of liver damage, so really he lived a normal life plenty of turnout, worked hard to keep his weight down, his last 2 blood tests had been good so there was no reason to do any more than manage him sensibly.

I would not be panicking at this stage, get onto the vet to sort out treatment and ensure he has no access to anything that may make matters worse, if the field has ragwort then I would look to move if you are at livery, cut out molasses, oil and starch from his diet asap and go back to basics to allow the liver a chance to recover.
 
Hi T. Sorry to hear this. I really think it depends on what has caused the problem. Mine had bacterial hepatitis last year and I am astounded quickly she went downhill and how well she recovered. She was very poorly for a long time. Lots of antibiotics, blood tonic and milk thistle. She slept a lot too. I think it's different for problems caused by other factors eg ragwort. Hope your horse is better soon. I'm sure your vet is on top of it so keep following their advice.
 
No equine experience, but my dog was diagnosed with major cirrhosis two years ago and has beaten the odds so far and is ahving fun and enjoying life.

But managing it is key.

Subject to what your vet says I would think about adding sAME to the milkthistle. It ain't cheap but it does work. Vitamin E is good too. Steroids also useful in calming any associated inflammation.

Like the sound of your vet, sure it will all work out all right.

Good luck!
 
Yes, this happened in october
14563422_10157693055015438_947600900701804265_n.jpg


He has no other symptoms but his GGT has got worse in that time, we hoped it might have been viral or that he had ingested something as it came on quickly, about 5 weeks after moving him but best guess is that we are dealing with some old age deterioration.- I've had him 12 years and all hay home made so definitely ragwort free etc so if he had damage he has hidden it very well. He had a couple of weeks of vet tonic which did diddly squat and will be on milk thistle long term.

Fwiw low protein/oil is now quite old thinking, they do still need sufficient as as such my chap has stayed on his linseed (after discussion with both a proper nutritionist (not a feed company one!) and my vet.

He seems otherwise find in himself and has and will be wearing a proper UV nose covering for life and we are just keeping an eye on him for lethargy etc. We will retest bloods when the grass starts growing again as that can be an important time for them. We aren't biopsying currently because he is fine in himself and it wouldn't make much difference to current treatment anyway just tell us a bit more, if he didn't have white bits we wouldn't know! Earlier in the year his leg white bits were scalped for scanning and they didnt burn then so presumably he was ok then.

turnbuckle what is sAME?
 
Thank you so much everyone, it makes me feel a lot better to see some success stories. I know I'm panicking rather prematurely, and normally I'm quite level headed about this sort of thing, but all sense goes out the window where he's concerned. I use him as a therapy animal for my anxiety, if that helps explain why I'm so nutty over this! We don't yet know what caused it, he lives at home with me so I know every aspect of his lifestyle for the past 7 years and there's nothing we can see that's obvious. Will have another chat with the vet - he spoke to my partner about this, not me personally - and see what else he can suggest. So far we have antibiotics, anti inflammatories and some advice on supplements once we've completed this course of meds.
 
I spent a lot of time trying to analyse what it might be having had Frank so long but there was/is no conclusion despite lots of field walking etc. Wrong time of year for most of that anyway.

He's also my sanity so I totally get that but atm I've only had to move halfway across the country without him but at least I still know he is doing ok.
 
turnbuckle said:
No equine experience, but my dog was diagnosed with major cirrhosis two years ago and has beaten the odds so far and is ahving fun and enjoying life.

But managing it is key.

Subject to what your vet says I would think about adding sAME to the milkthistle. It ain't cheap but it does work. Vitamin E is good too. Steroids also useful in calming any associated inflammation.

Like the sound of your vet, sure it will all work out all right.

Good luck!
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Would I be right that this is the sAME you mentioned: http://www.m.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-786/same
Milk thistle is the main ingredient in what I've been recommended so far. Will definitely try the Vitamin E.
My vet is fantastic, but he's become a good friend over the years and I'm aware that he'll be very conscious to avoid overwhelming me with anything scary, so I'm keen to double check that he's not sugar coating the odds of success.
 
ester said:
I spent a lot of time trying to analyse what it might be having had Frank so long but there was/is no conclusion despite lots of field walking etc. Wrong time of year for most of that anyway.

He's also my sanity so I totally get that but atm I've only had to move halfway across the country without him but at least I still know he is doing ok.
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We're in the same boat with no indications, I have another pony with health issues who will eat anything, so I check the fields/fence lines obsessively and note down anything I find, have done for years. No clue where this came from.

Sorry to hear you're so far away, can't be easy with the added worry of health concerns. I'll be lost when my boy eventually goes, but he's 17 and seems half his age, so this has really shaken me.
 
My pony had slightly raised liver enzymes for a few months last year. He had a big of a funny turn (possibly early onset laminitis but we're not convinced) and had his bloods tested as a result of that. It showed slightly raised white blood cells and raised liver enzymes. He went on vitamin E from the vet and after a month the WBCs were normal but the liver enzymes still raised, they stayed raised for a few months, a liver biopsy (very simple procedure) showed level 1 damage which is totally recoverable from. We then did a hay substitution and swapped to bagged haylage for 6 weeks, after that his enzymes came down and when we returned him onto his normal hay they stayed down. He seems fine now, we are just due another blood test in March. He was never really ill, worked all the time, albeit more gentle hacking than his usual work, he was just not really himself but seems fine now and back to normal (touch wood).
 
What were his enzyme levels like? We had several with raised enzymes, all a bit different and all with different treatment and outcomes.
 
Talism4n said:
Would I be right that this is the sAME you mentioned: http://www.m.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-786/same
Milk thistle is the main ingredient in what I've been recommended so far. Will definitely try the Vitamin E.
My vet is fantastic, but he's become a good friend over the years and I'm aware that he'll be very conscious to avoid overwhelming me with anything scary, so I'm keen to double check that he's not sugar coating the odds of success.
Click to expand...

That link shows 404, this one was the first to come up on Google : http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/sadenosylmethionine

Don't worry too much. Vets simply don't sugar-coat, it's basic training for them. And livers can re-build very well even if very damaged. I know of a human who went from 20% post-trauma to 95% within two months!
 
turnbuckle said:
That link shows 404, this one was the first to come up on Google : http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/sadenosylmethionine

Don't worry too much. Vets simply don't sugar-coat, it's basic training for them. And livers can re-build very well even if very damaged. I know of a human who went from 20% post-trauma to 95% within two months!
Click to expand...

Ah yes, that's the thing I'd found - sorry about the bad link!
Thank you, so so much, honestly. I feel so much better able to cope hearing from others who've been through this and have practical advice.
 
KatPT said:
What were his enzyme levels like? We had several with raised enzymes, all a bit different and all with different treatment and outcomes.
Click to expand...

I'm not actually 100% sure on the science of it, the vet has told me it's fairly mild damage and we know it's raised from bloods we took a couple of years ago. The vet will be out again later on this week so I'll get him to talk me through it all again. I'm sorry I don't have much by way of useful information, I've been a bit of a mess since we found out yesterday and I'm waiting on the vet to bring me the full results.
 
Talism4n said:
Hi all,

Does anyone have any experience of horses with liver failure? My boy has just had bloods come back indicating diseased liver, apparently it's fairly mild at this point, but given the symptoms that caused me to call the vet, I think this is the second flare up in about a year. I'm utterly hysterical, he's my horse of a lifetime and the source of all my sanity. I've never come across liver issues before so I'm looking for any advice on where to start with treating this, and I'd love to hear any stories of horses surviving with this for any great length of time. My vet has said it's too early to suggest a life expectancy at this stage, but I'm panicking and fearing the worst.

Huge thanks to anyone who reads this.
Click to expand...


No failure but very high disease not sure if it helps but my ponies turned out to be the hay, and after many tries the vet said put her on haylage as a last resort, which I did blue haylage and the next check up her enzymes came down, She went onto legaphyton and milk thistle removed all oils put her on Fibergy and a handful nuts.

She is still with me and I now very very cagy about introducing any new feeds and all I am adding and ONLY BECAUSE of the colic pink mash and bran otherwise her feed remains unchanged.

Also speak to trinity consultants I used this one https://trinity-consultants.com/product/l94/
http://horse-care-and-advice.weebly.com/l.html
There are some useful links here

I would strongly recommend Dodson and Horrell as Dr. Teresa Hollands R.Nutr is leading in the Liver disease and will help you
 
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Sorry to jump in here but I this is something I'm concerned about with my horse.
Over his lifetime (19 yrs) he's had massive long term amounts of nsaids.
He's not currently on any but has vasculitis in summer, I have to cover 3 white legs, and has more recently hives for no apparent reason. Sometimes terrible, sometimes like now I just notice when I brush him. He had a infected dermatitis type condition recently after a particularly bad hives episode.
Would things like this be related and point towards his liver?
Are there any other symptoms I should be aware of?
Is it a simple blood test to diagnose?
 
Frank has always had dreadful skin but I don't think it is related to his liver, if you are covering the white legs it might be worth checking in case that is triggering the vasculitis? yes it is just a blood, ours do some in house and send some away once the indicators were high. We retested last month as having jabs anyway and didn't bother to send it anywhere else as we could presume the results were likely the same. It wouldn't be a big deal if it put your mind at rest.

I've not managed to get actual levels out of them as they get reported to Mum these days so I get the info 2nd hand!
 
Not sure if Prof Derek Knottenbelt is still in practice but he was brilliant for info some years ago when a pony who had recently arrived at mine was dx with severe liver disease
The liver is quite remarkable and with the right care can regenerate if the problem is not too advanced

Prof Knottenbelt wrote some good papers about the liver ~ if you can hold of a copy of the below it is incredibly helpful but was written in 2002 but so much of it is valuable
Dobson and Horrell Ltd 4th International Conference on Feeding Horses
The Liver: The power station of the body
Written by Derek Knottenbelt (He was at Leahurst then)

When I contacted Derek Knottenbelt he was most helpful, my thirst for knowledge on the subject was immense at that time, not sure if this is well known but you can contact the RCVS library and for a fee they will search the files/data/papers and forward you every paper they can lay their hands on for you

Remember the pony who arrived at my yard was severe but after a few days I knew or rather had a strong suspicion and called my vet immediately, her symptoms were photosensitivity, scouring on and off, terrible itching, confusion (Like she was have a roll and look as if she was wasn't sure where she was), constant yawning and a few other problems

This pony came to me as a result of a marriage break up, my farrier had known the pony for many years and the family had taken good care of her but all the symptoms had sort of crept on when she was with them and they never noticed the bigger picture, she arrived with a big tub of sun cream which was my first clue


Also remember that some plants or ingested chemicals can cause signs that closely resemble photosensitisation so don't panic :)
 
Talism4n said:
I'm not actually 100% sure on the science of it, the vet has told me it's fairly mild damage and we know it's raised from bloods we took a couple of years ago. The vet will be out again later on this week so I'll get him to talk me through it all again. I'm sorry I don't have much by way of useful information, I've been a bit of a mess since we found out yesterday and I'm waiting on the vet to bring me the full results.
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Try not to worry too much. My pony had high liver enzymes for a few years. I was really worried initially as we only had him blood tested after another pony died suddenly from acute liver failure, not something I want to see again. In hindsight she had shown photosensitivity, we hadn't realised why she was suddenly so manically itchy. My pony never looked unwell which gave me some reassurance, his coat has always been glossy and sleek without any work from me, I knew if that got a bit dull I should worry! I made sure his diet was low iron and protein and fat, and added milk thistle. I gave him some time off as i thought it would benefit him, but he started getting a little feral and had bundles of energy so I brought him back into work and just took it easy if he ever felt a bit quiet (very rare!). My friends pony had high enzymes at the same time, but his bile acids were also high so he was treated more aggressively with antibiotics and other things. Both ponies are now in great form. Mine is in full work, fit and healthy and no sign of issues. I haven't blood tested for a year but the enzymes were pretty high for a good 3 years (bile was normal, GGT was up at 800 when high end of normal range is 50). Don't panic!
 
Yes. Currently ongoing still. He was initially treated with steroids/antibiotics, then a more aggressive treatment. He has had a liver biopsy and is due another one soon. Swapping to horsehage has helped but when he has an acute attack it manifests in his sheath initially. I just have to be really careful with what he eats and be judged by him. I do think some days he just feels pretty poo whilst others he is fine. According to my vet, who's brilliant, it's just a case of management. Finding what works and sticking to it. Was terrifying when my greedy fat cob stopped eating. I had so many bags of feed. Mollichop saved the day for us. He is currently back on antibiotics (doxycycline) as his sheath has flared. It's like a warning sign now so we keep an extra close eye on him.
Try not to worry too much. The prognosis at your horses stage is very good.
 
Haven't read the whole thread but my mare was put to sleep in 2004 with liver failure at the age of 27.

She was diagnosed at 19 as having liver disease but lived the next 8 years actively- showjumping until three months before we lost her.
Her only real issue in the 8 years from the original diagnosis was a difficulty in keeping weight on, it really was a struggle.
In the Easter of 2004 I found her on the floor having a seizure, she got up and was very confused. It was totally out of the blue and she had been in good health up til then. I opted to retire her then as I felt it was potentially dangerous to continue riding her.
She went downhill fast and I do largely believe that she lived for her work (she was extremely active, in hard work, competed all her life) and massively struggled to adjust to life as a pet.
She didn't have anymore fits that I witnessed, but became unsteady on her feet. Then she started to salivate excessively and soon she stopped eating. She was put to sleep a few days later.
 
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