Liver issue/grumpy?

[Michen]

He is a barn where he has turnout in a dry lot 7.30am-3am (In Colorado, USA- moved here in October). The horses are fed several flakes of hay 5 times a day, so small amounts frequently. He has more weight on him than he ever has in the UK, and looks the best he ever has and has come out of winter in -20c looking a million bucks. However, the last “feeding” in the turnout is at 11am and a few times recently I’ve been up at 12pm and he’s run out of hay. He either isn’t getting the full flake size (x 2) or he’s trampling most of it into the ground. I suspect both. Solution is I have bought a slow hay feeder box thing at great expense which will be delivered tomorrow. However I’ve noticed a few things lately.

• Increasingly grumpy with the other horse in trailer when going out for rides. Snapping at him through the bars.
• Doing a sort of quick lip movement thing when in the cross ties, doesn't do it if being groomed/tacked up in stable so I put it down to annoyance at being cross tied (he's used to being able to shift around etc as he sees fit)
• Peeing more than normal
• Leaving a little of his morning hard feed
• He's itchy and annoyed about it (hates getting sweaty) but I can't fully clip him as he always has been because the temp fluctuations are so wild. But this means he's shedding for the first time in 6 years and he's always an itchy horse.

These things (mainly the peeing) meant I recently blood tested him which showed very mild elevated liver enzymes. I have a plan with vet for how we will treat this which is mainly a change in diet for now. However tonight I ran into the barn manager who does night check who told me he has literally been lunging at them through the bars in the evening, teeth bared and ears pinned back. Regardless of whether he has hay or not (sometimes he’s finished by 7, sometimes not- either way he gets as much in his stall as he can eat pretty much and it's worked well as he's been eating up and had more weight on than ever). Now he is ALWAYS grumpy over the door until you approach him then the ears go forward and it’s all sweetness and light. But they said this is recent, the last 3 weeks or so, and its aggressive. Really aggressive. And that is not Boggle. I have not seen any hint of it towards me. or anyone when I've been around. However another boarder mentioned it the other day when they were there early in the morning.

So what on earth do I do? Could the above be linked to a ‘sore” liver? He’s a hot buzzy horse and always a prime candidate for ulcers but he’s been at this barn, on this schedule since October and really happy. Do I make the dietary adjustments for the liver, retest him in a month to rule it out as an issue as planned? Or pull him out of the barn immediately? Or scope and treat for ulcers? Or just treat, I'm not convinced on the scope re liver issue?

I am so upset. Coupled with the very end of a trail ride today where he somehow slipped in some mud and fell sideways on top of me. I have no idea how I wasn’t crushed. He scrambled to get up and seems fine but I’m dreading how he may be tomorrow. Nothing has change under saddle, he feels great. Really great.

It seems things have unraveled in the last few weeks, and it does seem to coincide with this liver issue. But although he's studdy and opinionated he's never been aggressive like this. And I have had no idea, as to me he's been the same.

He's not insured but money no object with whatever he needs, I just want to get it right. I am happy to scope or not scope, treat, remove him from the barn if the environment isn't right (but honestly, I think it's as good as it gets unless he goes on herd turnout and I think that would bring its own issues where he's so dominant)

Up until all these things have painted a picture, all in less than a month, he's been thriving.

Devasted

 

[blitznbobs]

Scopefor ulcers He has been though a stressful time with a fundamental change of diet i would think ulcers are extremely likely tbh

 

[SEL]

I got my PSSM mare blood tested a few years back when she was stiff, grumpy and miserable. Fully expected some sort of PSSM related issue but it was her liver.

I suspect that's part of your issue but Boggle's results weren't extreme so I'd be thinking ulcers too - but then it's all interrelated.

I wouldn't pull him out of the barn. Treat the liver, get the slow feeder in place and see how he is. Is he on a decent gut supplement?

 

[BBP]

I would also scope to be sure. BBP also looked a million dollars when he had them, was also on ad-lib forage and 24/7 turnout with company. I don’t think the liver issues are significant enough based on the blood work I saw (*not a vet*) to be causing what you are saying.

I’m also changing my baby connemaras diet right now a he has been driving himself mad itching. Removing the balancer which had soya and alfalfa in seems to be helping him to feel less itchy (only 2 weeks into my trial but I don’t see him rubbing his mane out at every opportunity)

Hope you are both not too sore after your fall.

 

[hollyandivy123]

After various posts on here about oily herbs and gut health. I looked into diet and microbiome and increasing diversity by using hedgrow herbs and others, especially as a lot if hay and grazing is monoculture. Have a look, I'm not saying it's the magic cure for things, but if you think how diverse the natural wild horse diet compared to now.

 

[scats]

I think I’d scope for ulcers first, before thinking about moving him. He’s had a lot of upheaval and although he outwardly seems to have coped amazingly well, inwardly might tell a slightly different story.

What feed is he on? Thinking about the itching.

 

[ycbm]

I'd scope for ulcers for sure M.

After the results I've seen with Ludo on oily herbs, with a big reduction in food needed and better weight maintenance in the second half of winter, I would look into adding them to his diet.

I'm sorry what looked life a dream introduction to your new life together is going a bit of the rails. Hopefully you'll both be back on track soon.
.

 

[Ceriann]

He’s had so much adjustment it would be no surprise if he had developed ulcers. I’ve had two with ulcers, both looked amazing and had no weight issues but both had been subject to big changes and showed some behavioural issues. Neither had bad ulcers and a standard course of treatment resolved the issue. I have had a horse with much higher liver enzyme levels than Boggles, she also looked great but her behaviour didn’t change at all (and behavioural changes are typically only seen when the levels are much higher). I would also scope. Hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

[maya2008]

Another vote for ulcers here. Most likely given the symptoms.

 

[Elno]

Definetely check for ulcers after such a long trip and change of environment.

What type of hay does he get? Some places in the US seem very fond of alfalfa hay- is he eating that perhaps and it's not suiting him?

 

[GreyDot]

I would scope. There is a link between elevated liver enzymes and gastric ulcers. Scoping is the only way to actually find out. His behaviour change does sound indicative.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Mim - worlds cuddliest horse - started getting very grumpy about being handled, and grumpy to other horses. Scoped and we had severe bleeding ulcers which must have been there for ages. Poor girl had just had enough. Definitely scope!

 

[Goldenstar]

I would scope for ulcers although treating for ulcers is a another option if you prefer than route .
My experience is that changing continents is extremely tough on horses and issues at this stage are not unusual.
My memory is that gastrogard is available over the counter in the US although searching through my memory banks I think it may have less active ingredient than what the vets prescribe here although that’s an old memory .
I would not be in a rush to change barns he’s had a huge change and adding more atm does feel to me like a good idea .
I think I might get the vet to test blood for acute and chronic inflammatory markers .

 

[Tiddlypom]

It could well be foregut ulcers but I 100% recommend scoping to check rather than doing a gastroguard trial without scoping.

My homebred had all the classic foregut sypmtoms, she had become so grumpy that pts was on the cards if we couldn't find the cause. To everyone's surprise, she scoped clear which left a diagnosis of hind gut ulcers. They can't be scoped for, and can only be seen on post mortem exam . Gastroguard aggravates hind gut ulcers.

After dibbling in feeding her Succeed supplement which had limited benefits, but did improve her slightly, she is now transformed for the better after getting the Equibiome test test done and following their post results oily herb protocol. The idea is that horses need to ingest a wide range of different plants and herbs to give a healthy hind gut biome, which is often lacking in modern horse keeping.

You've only money to lose if you get the Equibiome test run. Results take 8-10 weeks to come back. It's not wacky stuff, getting the test done on my mare was recommended to me by both my regular vet and my chiro vet.

Good luck.

Equibiome Faecal Test Kit (International) | equibiome

The International equine kit is compliant with the strict regulations of the UN3373 and the IATA P650 for the transport of specimens for air and road transport. Please allow 8-10 weeks from the time of receipt of the sample to delivery of results by email.The returning envelope is not prepaid as...

www.equibiome.org

 

[SantaVera]

Ulcers?

 

[Peglo]

I don’t know what feed he is on or any impact it might have if he does have ulcers (more knowledgeable folk will know) but my mare was really itchy. Started in winter so not sweetitch and she was balding patches in her coat. I took her off her hifi molasses free incase it was alfalfa causing it and put her on a plain grass chaff to carry supplements but she was itchy as ever and her coat dulled down and lost its shine. Put her back on hifi with linseed added in her bucket and she’s stopped itching and her winter coat is shiny and bright. I don’t need it for conditioning as she’s doing far too well but it’s really helped her itching.

You’ve had to make tough and stressful decisions with Bog and Pepper and they have all worked out so well so it’s going to feel a bit overwhelming when everything isn’t 100%. Your so meticulous with Bog you will get to the bottom of it.

 

[Lamehorses]

After all his changes gut issues are highly likely. I'd get the equibiome test done, gut imbalance can make them very grumpy.
I had great results with succeed supplement reducing grumpiness in my mare prior to equibiome test results & following their recommendations.
I'm assuming Bog had normal uk turnout prior to the move, so his guts have had a huge change + all the stress of shipping.

 

[Widgeon]

I'm sorry what looked life a dream introduction to your new life together is going a bit of the rails. Hopefully you'll both be back on track soon.
.

Ditto this, try to not panic Michen....the slip was just an accident and he'll most likely be fine. There's always something with horses and ulcers seems like a really likely culprit, just take it one step at a time and you'll find the problem. I wouldn't move barns, the ad-lib hay in the stable and a barn manager who will tell you what's going on both sound great.

The only useful thing I can think to add is, has the hay changed recently? Is there any chance he's being a diva and doesn't approve of this batch?

Big hugs, you're all doing incredibly well, you will be able to track this down and sort it.

 

[Trouper]

Until you have gone through 4 seasons over there with him I am not sure you can know what to expect as temperature, pollen levels etc will all be so different from what he is used to.

I agree with everyone else who has said test - ulcers, equibiome whatever you can think of so that you know what you can positively rule out or in. Sudden grumpiness is such a classic sign of ulcers, as we all know, that it would not surprise me to find it comes back positive.

When you get the results (and whatever else the vet recommends to do) try and set up a conversation with the guys here at Trinity Consultants. They have always been so helpful for me and others with "mysterious" symptoms and I think someone else mentioned their L94 supplement for liver issues on your USA thread when you first got the liver results back.

Above all, don't panic!!! And I would not think about moving him again until you know what you are dealing with - you would only be adding another "unknown" into the diagnostic equation and it all ends up like a game of three-dimensional chess

 

[splashgirl45]

I read the thread about Sig the American TB who came over here from America. He settled really well and like you and Bog all was going brilliantly , then out of the blue he got colic a few times and everything was going wrong.. wonder if it’s the same sort of thing with Boggle, maybe both of them didn’t settle internally and it came out with illness.. might be worth having a look at her thread so see what the timelines were… On a good note Sig is now fine ..

 

[MereChristmas]

My experience was this.
I bought F and brought him home in September 2020. In hindsight in July 2021 his behaviour started to change slightly. It got gradually worse over the next months until he was almost unrideable.
By elimination of various things in January 2022 he was scoped for ulcers. He had grade 2 which were raw.
As others have said Boggle has had some huge life changes and although he has seemed happy who knows what Mother Nature does inside?
Of course I would scope. If there are none you won’t be worrying has he got them, hasn’t he got them.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

It sounds like a very stressful time for you, but please try not to panic just yet: you've all had a lot of change in your life.
I'm no expert, but perhaps you should just take it one step at a time. I would start by scoping for ulcers to rule in or out (in which case possibility of hind gut ulcers). Is there anything in his diet that could be contributing to this (or anything missing)? I assume you're also coming up to spring in Colorado, could pollen form new to him plants or something be giving him slight allergic reactions, making him more itchy and unhappy?
Good luck getting to the bottom of it all, I'm sure you will as you're so attentive to Boggle's needs.

 

[Michen]

Thank you so much everyone. So feed wise he’s been on sugary compound shit and I know I’m an idiot for allowing it but, he’s so fussy with hard feed and he was doing really well. It was so cold and I kinda thought I didn’t want to risk him getting fussy and dropping weight.

Hay wise he’s on a Timothy mix. No alfalfa.

There’s every chance he got fussy with a bale and every chance that could be linked to the liver.

I’m going to speak to the USA vet today, annoyingly my usual one only scopes at the clinic arghhh which is not very near and I don’t yet have transport. It’s doable though it will just take some organising and this is the worst possible time as I have three days away with work next week and then I’m meant to be back in the UK for two weeks.

My other option is to blanket treat for a month then scope after to ensure he’s clear although I get the hind gut ulcer thing. I’ll talk to the vet both UK and USA and see what they say.

Poor Bog. I really hope it’s just a blip or even a chicken and egg thing, maybe the liver issue caused enough disturbance to tip him over the edge.

Ps yes he’s on a good gut supplement that actually covers him for colic surgery should he ever need it, just by buying on it.

 

[Michen]

Also can anyone advise about ulcer treatment whose done it recently? I recall and injection being feasible and this would be much better in terms of me being away etc...

But two horses at the barn are currently on ulcer meds and they are getting some very complex pastes and mixes 3 times a day!

 

[humblepie]

When mine was on ulcer treatment it was Gastroguard once a day I think 30 minutes before feed time. Nothing complex. Don't know about injections. Hope you get sorted with him and he is fine after his slip.

 

[Michen]

I don't even know how I'd manage that without being here though. The barn hands aren't going to be able to do that, he's not easy to worm etc. I see a flight change in my future but I can't get out of the work stuff.

I'll speak to the vet and see what options we have.

 

[humblepie]

I don't even know how I'd manage that without being here though. The barn hands aren't going to be able to do that, he's not easy to worm etc. I see a flight change in my future but I can't get out of the work stuff.

I'll speak to the vet and see what options we have.

There may well be other options particularly in the USA. Am sure vet will have ideas.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Also can anyone advise about ulcer treatment whose done it recently? I recall and injection being feasible and this would be much better in terms of me being away etc...

But two horses at the barn are currently on ulcer meds and they are getting some very complex pastes and mixes 3 times a day!

Not my horse but one at the yard had the injections, I can't quite remember the frequency they were given but it certainly wasn't every day and they cleared the ulcers up.

edit: However, that is just the Omeprazole and not Sucralfate which is normally given too.

 

[Elno]

So feed wise he’s been on sugary compound shit and I know I’m an idiot for allowing it but, he’s so fussy with hard feed and he was doing really well. It was so cold and I kinda thought I didn’t want to risk him getting fussy and dropping weight.

Hay wise he’s on a Timothy mix. No alfalfa.

Advice from someone who lives with long, very cold and very snowy winters:

Drop the sugary compound feed, especially if you suspect ulcers. In cold weather it's better to feed more hay because it is the fermentation of forage in the gut that keeps them warm, not the hard feed.

We regularly have -20 to -25 and the horses thrive as long as they have enough hay to munch on through the day Some even manage without any blankets (unless clipped of course). Mine who is unclipped had 150 g at most this winter when it was -20. Horses cope much better with cold, dry weather than wet, windy weather.

Management and feeding of horses in cold weather

Learn how to manage and feed horses during cold weather.

www.ontario.ca

 

[Michen]

Sorry i should have added I've weaned him off the sugary shit as soon as I got the liver enzymes back. Now on timothy hay pellets, a little beet, milk thistle etc.

Urgh it's 4am and I'm in floods of tears wondering wtf to do.