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sam72431

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I own a five year old hanoverian, he was suffering with mud fever which turned out to be photsensitivity, (took a long time to diagnose) vet took blood samples a couple of months ago and he was on antibiotics, steriods and hepatosyl, bloods showed raised liver enzyms, a week later after all the treatment still raised and one had gone up! All of them are not worrying however and vet said to leave it a month and then take more bloods! I therefore put him on Naf BLK and he is also on Naf Energy as well as topform which he has always had, he seems bright and happy in himself but can be fairly lazy in work, anyway vet took more bloods yesterday and they have come down his CQT (???) is now 88 and was 111 and it should be in 60s so they arent worryingly high, vet said we can do more antibiotics but no more steriods, his legs have all cleared up and are looking really good, should I be concerned? Vet said if it doesnt improve then we would look to do a scan and biopsy, but I'm a little worried as he isnt covered on insurance because I stupidly let insurance lapse and then when I took out the new policy the vet came out within the 14 day not insureed for medical bit so what is the rough cost? Has anyone else got experiance of this, he definitely has more energy since being on the energy and all his other bloods are really good, literally only the liver! Anyone with any experiance please! Is there anything else I could be doing? Thanks
 
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My girl had this last year. She had high enzymes, we monitored them for several months and they were going down without any treatment. Then in December they started to go up again so she had a liver biopsy which simply showed the cause wasn't ragwort and there was no serious damage. She went on a months course of prednisilone (sp?) through feb. the levels continued to drop and her last blood test in June came back totally normal. I never did find out what the cause was, probably a virus going round.
The biopsy cost £663, the prednisilone was £120 ish.
 
I'd be a little cautious. Acute photosensitivity will of course clear up during the winter months so that's not necessarily a useful indicator. While you wait for (hopefully) everything to get back to normal, I'd think about changing or adapting your horse's diet to support his liver more. A liver supporting diet = low protein, no oil or conditioning feeds, Milk Thistle, Yea Sac, little-and-often feeds.
 
Box of Frogs gave me some good advice to phone Teresa Hoyland nutrion.

she put us on a stricked diet

milk thistle
legaphyton
photosensitive is a later symptom along with odemas

I would take this serious warning and consult D&H

I just lost my mare who had liver disease ( not that which ended her life) but could have, she stood along the wall which was abnormal
 
Echo Leviathan. Dr Teresa Hollands is chief nutritionist with D&H. D&H work hand in glove with Prof Knottenbelt of Liverpool Uni on liver damage in horses. The Prof is a world expert. I wouldn't hesitate to put your horse on a liver-support diet until you know what the most recent blood tests show. If there is any doubt as to whether your horse has an ongoing or serious liver problem then D&H can draw up a tailored diet for your horse. Should things deteriorate, the Prof is always willing to help the individual horse owner.
 
He is currently fed, pasture mix, mollichaff, flax oil, NAF BLK, Equine America Topform, Brewers Yeast, NAF Energy and garlic and mint, is this a really awfull diet? I tried to find the lowest protein mix I could but he also needs a bit of oomph! Thanks for all your help, I'm hoping things are going in the right direction as they have dropped quite well over the last month already, latest bloods show 88 and were 111! And he has now been prescribed a ten day course of anitibiotics (TMP)
 
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That's a lot of sups.

flax oil, NAF BLK, Equine America Topform, Brewers Yeast, NAF Energy and garlic and mint
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How much garlic do you feed?

Both NAF things have iron in them, right? I wonder if you're feeding too much? The Topfrom sup has iron, too.

IIRC, iron overload can cause liver problems.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/22828.htm

In horses, primary clinical signs are weight loss, lethargy, and intermittent anorexia. In cattle, signs include decreased weight gain, poor body condition, dull hair coat, and diarrhea. In both species, liver enzymes, including GGT, AP, AST, and SDH are increased.
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Might be something to ask your vet about anyway. :)
 
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Oh really? The trouble is I literally didnt feed anything before just mint and garlic (the naf one mixed together) a small scoop of it, and flax oil and thats when the liver problems started so thats why i put him on the various supplements to help it, my vet hasnt really asked about his diet as his liver problems aren't that significant but i did tell her that i had put him on BLK and she said that was a good idea! Thanks!
 
A liver damaged horse should NEVER EVER be fed oils or conditioning feeds (which always contain high levels of oil). A damaged liver cannot break oils down (the bile produced in the liver does this) so you will get digestive problems caused by undigested oils passing through the gut as well as toxins circulating in the blood stream. Dump the oils and drop the protein levels. You may feel you need more oomph but, sorry to be graphic, a live horse comes before performance levels. Hang on until you know for sure what if anything is wrong with your horse's liver...only then can you safely start making more demands of the liver. I would strongly urge you to contact D&H for potentially life-saving advice x
 
Box_Of_Frogs said:
A liver damaged horse should NEVER EVER be fed oils or conditioning feeds (which always contain high levels of oil). A damaged liver cannot break oils down (the bile produced in the liver does this) so you will get digestive problems caused by undigested oils passing through the gut as well as toxins circulating in the blood stream. Dump the oils and drop the protein levels. You may feel you need more oomph but, sorry to be graphic, a live horse comes before performance levels. Hang on until you know for sure what if anything is wrong with your horse's liver...only then can you safely start making more demands of the liver. I would strongly urge you to contact D&H for potentially life-saving advice x
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As froggy
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said. You are fine on pasture mix. As Teresa said to me with liver problems pasture mix has soothing agents. My mare could not have it because of her laminitis.

Again as froggy said contact D&H.

I am actually going to ring them today for my mares sons diet.



one of my liveries horse has been in a hot country now in Uk. Is loosing weight. She knows about my mare but will do her own thing:rolleyes:
liver test showed could have been fighting of a virus (did have conjunctivitis when it arrived)

Its now on 2 alfa 1 conditioning mix and soya flakes and oil. in each feed


why do people not listen to advice when they see what i was going though and pump horse with pretty looking feed.


Another livery (30)
is on the same diet my mare had which started lami:(

comp mix 1 scoop day
hifi
barley rings
propell
soon to be mixed flakes
mind boggles sometimes when they see the hurt I am going through since loosing her last week why they alarm bells don't ring
redflag.gif
 
Thanks so much for all your advice, I've never had to deal with this kind of thing so finding it all very confusing, ok so I will drop flax oil, what about the equine america topform (general vitamin and mineral supplement)? and I should drop the naf energy its this one: http://www.naf-equine.eu/uk/products/productDetail.jsp?detail_id=energ also when his bile acids were tested they were all fine its literally just one of his liver enzymes, is mollichaff ok to feed? Sorry for all the questions just want to do the best for him!!! Thanks
 
also stay away from iron as much as you can. my horse has liver damage and i was advised by my vet to reduce the iron intake as much as possible. i put him on milk thistle and it seemed to help him. i know his liver is still damaged but i have to manage it the best i can.
he had a biopsy a few years ago and it was straight forward although think the vet bill came in at around £600 for the biopsy, drugs, tests, visits etc. can't remember the cost of the biopsy but i know i wasn't overly shocked by it.
 
Hi at last I have found other horse owners who are dealing with liver damage. My cob 15yrs started losing weight around May this year, although a bit of weight loss was good. (Hes always been a fat boy) By August he had lost energy and the weight was still coming off. He had bloods taken which came back very high in Gamma and enzymes. Due to the high levels we had a liver biopsy done which sadly didnt shed any light on the cause or prognosis. He went on a high dose of steroids and anti-biotics. After a second blood test his levels had halved we are now 220 gamma, which is still very high. The vet has said that there is no more we can do but to let his liver try and repair by itself. I am on a rollar-coaster as my beloved horse is skin and bone, you can see his ribs. He has very little energy, distended belly and swollen sheath. He is on a low protein feed (happy hoof) feedmark veteran mix, has milk thistle etc to help liver. I dont know what else I can give to help him. Its seems to be a waiting game to see if he will get better.

Sorry this is so long winded but this is a terrible disease, and there seems little in the way of medication or advice. Any ideas
 
My ponies had this ongoing since may now,,, he wasnt on form and lacked any spark and energy so i had him blood tested, showed slightly abdnornal white cells / inflamed liver, he went onto a course of nerodine than more blood tests after, stilll no improvement so had a second course of nerodine, even than there wasnt an improvement so he had 2 weeks of baytril antibiotics, after finishing that treatment his blood tests where still showing up signs of something wrong so in august he had a liver biospy, the vets than put him on a high dose of imuran tablets, that didnt work and i thought he was looking worse in himself so more blood taken ( showed up that he was deteriorating ) so 4 weeks or so ago he had another biopsy, specialist now involved and hes just finished another month of baytril plus hes on very high dose of steroids now long term ( at least another 6 weeks to go ) although now this weekend his sheath started swelling and he also has a lump on his stomach so vets were out again on monday to take yet more bloods :-( its never ending! Hope your chap gets better soon! x
 
My daughter's pony has just had livery biopsy after worsening blood results. She lacked spark during the later part of the summer so we got vet to check her out. Liver enzymes up. Biopsy showed no damage (scored her 0 on biopsy) and now on six week course of antiboitics and steroids to see if we can improve her bloods.
 
Hi - sorry to hijack the thread somewhat but can anyone tell me what Milk Thistle actually does? I know it supports the liver but how/in what sense ...Does anyone know please?

I was advised to put one of our horses on it after a blood test was returned showing possible liver damage. It was all a little bit of a farce as the blood test was taken during a lami attack and I have since been told that liver function should not be test/checked during a lami incident as the count will come back high because the body is under duress due to the lami, therefore given an incorrect reading ... (is this sounding plausable to anyone?!)

He has no symptoms of liver disease (I don't think), happy, healthy and in good condition but I put him on milk thistle as a precaution and to help him in case there was a problem.

Just wondering whether to carry on with it (it's inexpensive and won't do him any harm, right?) or if I can/should knock it off now? Bag is running out hence my questions to be honest! It has been over 6 months since the lami etc and since he started the milk thistle.
Wondering what might happen if he comes off it?? In case it makes any difference he is quite young (6 years). Thanks
 
mummblesmum said:
My daughter's pony has just had livery biopsy after worsening blood results. She lacked spark during the later part of the summer so we got vet to check her out. Liver enzymes up. Biopsy showed no damage (scored her 0 on biopsy) and now on six week course of antiboitics and steroids to see if we can improve her bloods.
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My young horse also had a biopsy that came back clear....he has had 3 lots of bloods done that all show high enzymes, but the lab can't see any reason for it....he has now started a course of hepatosyl plus for 8 weeks....The vet said it is really expensive, but thankfully he is insured....
 
PortuguesePony said:
Hi - sorry to hijack the thread somewhat but can anyone tell me what Milk Thistle actually does? I know it supports the liver but how/in what sense ...Does anyone know please?

I was advised to put one of our horses on it after a blood test was returned showing possible liver damage. It was all a little bit of a farce as the blood test was taken during a lami attack and I have since been told that liver function should not be test/checked during a lami incident as the count will come back high because the body is under duress due to the lami, therefore given an incorrect reading ... (is this sounding plausable to anyone?!)

He has no symptoms of liver disease (I don't think), happy, healthy and in good condition but I put him on milk thistle as a precaution and to help him in case there was a problem.

Just wondering whether to carry on with it (it's inexpensive and won't do him any harm, right?) or if I can/should knock it off now? Bag is running out hence my questions to be honest! It has been over 6 months since the lami etc and since he started the milk thistle.
Wondering what might happen if he comes off it?? In case it makes any difference he is quite young (6 years). Thanks
Click to expand...


Milk thistle has been used for centuries its originates from the Mediterranean parts of Europe. It has liver protective properties in and regenerating properties too . You can buy liquid or the dry thistle . I prefer the dry my mare loved it.

The research they have done on it suggests that milk thistle extracts both prevent and repair damage to the liver from toxic chemicals and medications. It has many uses but in the horse world its mainly used for liver related issues.

If you worried about continuing with milk thistle then I suggest you speak to D&H nutritionist, Teresa Hollands works hand in glove with the worlds leader in liver disease in horses. They give great advice and also advice and tailored diets for your horses day to day life. I would not use anyone else now on nutrition diets. Run anything you hear or adviced to get with them, they are so helpful. Froggy always advices it too.
 
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My boy's liver problems started in May 2011. He was lethargic, depressed and losing condition. Tests found raised enzymes and bile acids, hydatid cysts were seen on scans. He's had lami so steroids weren't an option. He had antibiotics with not much change after. Prescribed legaphyton then continued with milk thistle since then. Maybe a coincidence but his enzyme levels gradually dropped and have been fine since. I'll continue feeding it alongside his low protein diet prescribed by Theresa from D&H who my vet recommended I speak to. I feed alfa-a molasses free, speedi-beet, milk thistle, cosequin (for his joints) and Formula4Feet. We do struggle with energy levels sometimes but between the lami and liver problems I've had to sacrifice oomph for health.

There do seem to be an increased number of undiagnosed liver issues. Wonder if it's just more common testing or an actual increasing problem?
 
Gem1979,

interested to see you give Formula4Feet as your vit/mins. I only gave this for a very short time, when we suspected too high a level of selenium may have kicked my ponies into liver disease, as F4F has very very very low levels of selenium in it (ie none added)

However, given that my grass/hay/haylage (and that for a lot of the UK) shows deficient levels of selenium, it certainly isn't something I'd feed long term unless I was on land that had too high a selenium level.

Just wondered what influenced your decision to feed that. If it's because your forage is very high in selenium, then it sounds a sensible choice. Otherwise, if your forage is more typical of the UK in general, I'd change it for one with the recommended levels of selenium, especially as you say your boy's energy levels can be low (which can be how a horse with muscle problems presents).

I only mention in case it's something you want to weigh up in the ever-more complicated equation of things.

Best wishes

Sarah
 
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