Livery Dilemma,Bob has been kicked.

[Bob notacob]

Yard owner decided to take on a DIY livery and add it to "the seen and not heard Herd ",ruled by Bob. Its a recently cut 3yo Arab (Bob says its a Shiite) .For the last two weeks the normally peaceful herd have been coming in with Kicks and Bites .Owners cant bring their horses in without risking its aggressive behaviour. Today Bob was kicked badly when the herd tried to hide behind him . Kicked right on a joint(that nobody seems able to name ) between point of hip and stifle . He will be indoors tomorrow ,but the trouble is that I expect (from long experience ) that yo will do nothing and so the situation will keep happening. Bob has been happy there but I would move him out tomorrow rather than risk his welfare . I am trying not to overreact .What would you do?

 

[hock]

No really advice it’s a shit situation but I would get him out tomorrow moving that joint providing he’s not hopping lane!

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Horses will be horses, no horse is ever at risk of not being kicked, that’s how they sort out politics. I would turn him back out, the herd will settle back down once everyone knows their place. Chances are the youngster is getting kicked and bitten too. If it’s being aggressive to you then put it in its place.

Also once the horomones are out of his system you will see a dramatic change in the youngsters behaviour. Can take 12weeks

 

[Lois Lame]

Poor Bob.

Should this new gelding have been added to a herd before his raging hormones had settled, I wonder. No suggestions from me because I don't have any. I'll be reading this thread to hear the wisdom from others.

 

[[153312]]

how recently is 'recently cut'?
8-12 weeks cooling down period is usual, imo - unfortunately horses will be horses, especially boys, and I'd rather take the risk of a vets' fee than have any horse in solitary turnout - add to that any move/settling in time and they're bound to be unsettled.

 

[ponynutz]

Poor Bob

My mare was the one that started these fights when we moved yard once and she was moved to another herd pretty quickly - your horses shouldn't have to suffer.

Might settle though once new horse's hormones settle.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Hormones aside, some horses are just like this. There was a gelding added to the herd at the yard that was like this and made it very difficult for other liveries to bring their horses in. YO switched him to solo turnout, which horse seemed fine with, because he was just a danger to everyone. He was a 10 year old gelding who had been a gelding for quite some time...so sometimes it is who they are. Maybe he will settle, maybe not. If all of the liveries approach YO and YO does nothing, then I'd leave if I felt my horse would be continously subject injury.

Yes, group turnout carries that risk, but we can also try to set things up for success, not failure and injuries.

 

[Ratface]

Yard owner decided to take on a DIY livery and add it to "the seen and not heard Herd ",ruled by Bob. Its a recently cut 3yo Arab (Bob says its a Shiite) .For the last two weeks the normally peaceful herd have been coming in with Kicks and Bites .Owners cant bring their horses in without risking its aggressive behaviour. Today Bob was kicked badly when the herd tried to hide behind him . Kicked right on a joint(that nobody seems able to name ) between point of hip and stifle . He will be indoors tomorrow ,but the trouble is that I expect (from long experience ) that yo will do nothing and so the situation will keep happening. Bob has been happy there but I would move him out tomorrow rather than risk his welfare . I am trying not to overreact .What would you do?

 

[Ratface]

I would look for another yard asap. It sounds as if Bob will continue to be at risk of physical and possibly mental damage.

 

[AmyMay]

If YO is not prepared to remove the horse, vote with your feet.

 

[shortstuff99]

If the cut has broken the skin on the joint I would also be getting a vet ASAP, I have had 3 horses have kicks on joints and they have all required flushing and hospital stays, you do not want an infection to get in there.

From this though I will strictly not turn mine out with other peoples horses ever again. Mine live with each other but that is it.

 

[milliepops]

Yes, group turnout carries that risk, but we can also try to set things up for success, not failure and injuries.

this. and also have to be prepared to back track if something looks like it was a bad idea, not just press on. it's one thing to mix your own horses together and take the hit if things go wrong but mixing a group of separately owned horses needs a more careful approach IMO as you are gambling on the behalf of multiple people. I would decide next steps on the YOs attitude.

 

[nagblagger]

How big is the field? Is there enough room for them to get away from each other if necessary. In time they should accept each other - but it's whether you want to wait/ risk it. It is a shame a good herd has been unsettled.

 

[Lois Lame]

This sort of thing can happen in huge fields though while the horses decide who is top dog.

 

[AmyMay]

Is there enough room for them to get away from each other if necessary.

Clearly not.

 

[Arzada]

is that I expect (from long experience ) that yo will do nothing and so the situation will keep happening. Bob has been happy there but I would move him out tomorrow rather than risk his welfare . I am trying not to overreact .What would you do?

I'd meet with the YO face to face with other liveries whose horses have been injured. If noone wanted to speak up with me then I would find Bob a new home. If a meeting does take place and the YO refuses to remove the new gelding then I would find Bob a new home. More immediately I'd be looking for a new place for Bob so he can move out fast if necessary.

 

[Reacher]

Horses will be horses etc and yes herd turnout is best - but if the YO won’t take precautions if this horse is causing problems I’d probably look elsewhere too. Have any of the liveries discussed it with YO?
I know a couple of people who have lost a horse due to it getting kicked by a livery.
(Cross posted with Arzada)

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Was the new horse introduced to the herd over a fence before being added into the field? If not, I would move my horse because the YO doesn't know what they are doing.

 

[Wizpop]

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that horses will be horses, I do think that, in this situation, the YO should have taken more precautions when introducing a recently cut, unknown horse to an established herd and been more mindful of potential problems.
To me sounds like no real thought has been given to this situation and the YO does have a duty of care to his/ her liveries. Poor management.

 

[Bob notacob]

Fortunately yo has removed the offending horse from the herd. Its a lot more than 12 weeks since it was gelded by the way. Bob is out again with his friends and hopefully walking about will help. I am so relieved that YO has taken the problems seriously.

 

[Nasicus]

Fortunately yo has removed the offending horse from the herd. Its a lot more than 12 weeks since it was gelded by the way. Bob is out again with his friends and hopefully walking about will help. I am so relieved that YO has taken the problems seriously.

Thank goodness! I had a situation with a NASTY gelding on a livery yard, chucked out into our herd, took ages before the YO listened and moved him. He would run down the field just to double barrel your horse when you were leading it out.

If it’s being aggressive to you then put it in its place.

I'm going to strongly disagree here. Liveries should not be expected to deal with someone else's aggressive horse. That's just plain dangerous. The aggressive horse should be removed elsewhere until it learns some manners/for the owner to deal with, not left for liveries to fend off every time they want to get their horses.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I'm going to strongly disagree here. Liveries should not be expected to deal with someone else's aggressive horse. That's just plain dangerous. The aggressive horse should be removed elsewhere until it learns some manners/for the owner to deal with, not left for liveries to fend off every time they want to get their horses.

Well I’m going to strongly disagree back. I will chase any horse out of my space regardless of who it’s owner is, could be the queens horse and it would get the same back off treatment from me. I won’t be injured by someone else’s bolshy ignorant horse, if they don’t want to teach it spacial awareness manners then I will. Any owner can come speak to me about it and be told exactly why I’m having to Move their horse away from me.

If my youngster is being a brat anyone with a horse in the field is allowed to move him away from them. Some horses are angels with their owners and hell for everyone else so easiest way to make it easier on yourself, teach the horse not to invade your space. Constantly removing horses doesn’t teach them anything, being assertive and showing them your not taking their rudeness does. If that’s with a leadrope, a headcollar, shouting and waving their arms then so be it whatever it take for a human to be safe from being injured by 500kgs+ of solid equine. Bigger picture needs looked at ie human safety, it’s not abuse to keep yourself safe.

 

[SEL]

My old boy has never been rideable after someone turned a riggy gelding out in the field when it was just my gelding and all mares. It was 10 acres but the horse went for him. I got the riggy one out and have rarely felt so unsafe as walking that horse back to the yard. Its owner threw a wobbly and moved her horse thankfully - probably because she was worried I'd send her the vet bill.

I'm introducing a new one at the moment and am taking it slowly. He is on solo turnout at night still after 2.5 weeks and out with my elderly gelding during the day. You can never guarantee what will happen when they all go in together but you can set it up for success by introducing over a fence and monitoring reactions. I'm relieved your YO has taken this seriously and I hope Bob is OK

 

[Bob notacob]

Well I’m going to strongly disagree back. I will chase any horse out of my space regardless of who it’s owner is, could be the queens horse and it would get the same back off treatment from me. I won’t be injured by someone else’s bolshy ignorant horse, if they don’t want to teach it spacial awareness manners then I will. Any owner can come speak to me about it and be told exactly why I’m having to Move their horse away from me.

If my youngster is being a brat anyone with a horse in the field is allowed to move him away from them. Some horses are angels with their owners and hell for everyone else so easiest way to make it easier on yourself, teach the horse not to invade your space. Constantly removing horses doesn’t teach them anything, being assertive and showing them your not taking their rudeness does. If that’s with a leadrope, a headcollar, shouting and waving their arms then so be it whatever it take for a human to be safe from being injured by 500kgs+ of solid equine. Bigger picture needs looked at ie human safety, it’s not abuse to keep yourself safe.

of course its not abuse to keep yourself safe.However a riggy aggressive horse driving half a dozen horses around at a fast gallop takes a bit more than a head collar to stop.

 

[Fred66]

Well I’m going to strongly disagree back. I will chase any horse out of my space regardless of who it’s owner is, could be the queens horse and it would get the same back off treatment from me. I won’t be injured by someone else’s bolshy ignorant horse, if they don’t want to teach it spacial awareness manners then I will. Any owner can come speak to me about it and be told exactly why I’m having to Move their horse away from me.

If my youngster is being a brat anyone with a horse in the field is allowed to move him away from them. Some horses are angels with their owners and hell for everyone else so easiest way to make it easier on yourself, teach the horse not to invade your space. Constantly removing horses doesn’t teach them anything, being assertive and showing them your not taking their rudeness does. If that’s with a leadrope, a headcollar, shouting and waving their arms then so be it whatever it take for a human to be safe from being injured by 500kgs+ of solid equine. Bigger picture needs looked at ie human safety, it’s not abuse to keep yourself safe.

I think your attitude regarding teaching manners is commendable but it shouldn’t be up to other liveries to do the teaching.

This is both for theirs and the horses safety. Whilst some might be comfortable chasing back with head collar and lead rope others might not, you could end up with them using a lunge whip for example which presumably you would not be happy about. Others could be so nervous in this situation that the horse is left to dominate which would cause a whole different problem. Also if someone is injured by a horse known to be aggressive then there would be liability issues

 

[Nasicus]

Well I’m going to strongly disagree back. I will chase any horse out of my space regardless of who it’s owner is, could be the queens horse and it would get the same back off treatment from me. I won’t be injured by someone else’s bolshy ignorant horse, if they don’t want to teach it spacial awareness manners then I will. Any owner can come speak to me about it and be told exactly why I’m having to Move their horse away from me.

If my youngster is being a brat anyone with a horse in the field is allowed to move him away from them. Some horses are angels with their owners and hell for everyone else so easiest way to make it easier on yourself, teach the horse not to invade your space. Constantly removing horses doesn’t teach them anything, being assertive and showing them your not taking their rudeness does. If that’s with a leadrope, a headcollar, shouting and waving their arms then so be it whatever it take for a human to be safe from being injured by 500kgs+ of solid equine. Bigger picture needs looked at ie human safety, it’s not abuse to keep yourself safe.

A bolshy horse is one thing, by all means chase them out of your space.

But an aggressive horse? A horse being actively aggressive towards you? Nope, not my job to be getting involved in that. I'm not going to start waving my arms at an aggressive horse that's coming at me with hooves and teeth, I quite like my head not caved in by a pair of hind hooves. The aggressive horse I mentioned in my post didn't give a monkeys about waving arms, ropes, etc. He would come at you with murder in his eyes and flapping anything at him would result in him doing a handbrake turn, pointing his backside to you and giving it both barrels. He was dangerous, and it wasn't our job as liveries with our own friendly ponies to be dealing/putting up with someone else's problem.

 

[PeterNatt]

I woud suggest that the yard owner has been totally irresponsible allowing this horse which has clearly demonstrated that it is aggresive to remain in this heard. It should be removed immediately before it causes a life changing serious injury to another horse or even a person. I would suggest that you all have a quiet word with the owner and make them aware of your concerns. Remember they have a duty of care to you and your horses while on their land.

 

[Bob notacob]

I woud suggest that the yard owner has been totally irresponsible allowing this horse which has clearly demonstrated that it is aggresive to remain in this heard. It should be removed immediately before it causes a life changing serious injury to another horse or even a person. I would suggest that you all have a quiet word with the owner and make them aware of your concerns. Remember they have a duty of care to you and your horses while on their land.

Thanks Peter, however YO has moved extremely quickly now it is clear that there will be no settling down as one might normally expect. The new horse had to be given its chance, but it has , I suspect ,bigger problems than simply being a recently cut stallion. Fortunately it seems Bob has an unlikely ally ,YO,s husband ,who has stepped in and said ,enough is enough. Bob says he might seriously have to consider reinstating him on his Christmas card list!

 

[Louby]

Im so pleased the new horse has been removed! Im all for Horses will be horses but its no fun when its your horse getting all the injuries, which ever one is at fault. I lost my lovely rising 7 yr old mare last year because of a situation like this, everyone saying chill etc etc, horses will be horses, they will settle. I tried for 2 yrs to get her right after her injuries but it wasnt to be, she wasnt nasty but she was I expect an up and coming dominant mare, dominant seems a strong word as she didnt kick, bite etc, she just flaunted about.

 

[Lois Lame]

I get the feeling Bob is a benevolent leader, well-liked by his girlfriends. I bet they are glad to see the disappearing rump of the other fellow.