Livery query

[Wimpymama]

Hi, I've moved onto a livery yard and been there a week. I'm paying twice the amount as is usual for the area as it's very convenient for me and is promising lots of new facilities (although none of this has come to fruition yet). I've not been on a yard before as always had ours at home but they insist on cash payment (is this normal?)
They also have a clause in the contract to say that if you miss one of more weeks payment, they can sell your horse! I've not signed anything yet. Is this standard? That they would do this after such a short period of time?? I have no plans on missing payments but without a receipt, how could I prove I had paid?! It's making me nervous. Am I unreasonable to question this?

 

[Goldie's mum]

If something makes you nervous always take notice. You are only here today because 100,000 years ago your ancestor got a shiver down her spine and climbed a tree just before the sabre toothed tiger pounced.

30 years since I used a livery (we're lucky enough to be on a croft of our own) but I'm sure I'd have remembered a clause like that.

How do they react if you ask them to sign a receipt book that you keep yourself?

 

[horsesense]

If something makes you nervous always take notice. You are only here today because 100,000 years ago your ancestor got a shiver down her spine and climbed a tree just before the sabre toothed tiger pounced.

30 years since I used a livery (we're lucky enough to be on a croft of our own) but I'm sure I'd have remembered a clause like that.

How do they react if you ask them to sign a receipt book that you keep yourself?

Sounds like they are fiddling tax. If they are that overtly dishonest with a new client you are unlikely to have a happy relationship with them in the fullness of time.

 

[horsesense]

Sounds like they are fiddling tax. If they are that overtly dishonest with a new client you are unlikely to have a happy relationship with them in the fullness of time.

Sorry, wrong thread.

 

[SashaBabe]

Sorry, can't answer if the stipulations are "normal", but I would definitely not hand over cash without a signed receipt.

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

Absolutely no way would it I pay cash for livery. It's a situation that needs a contract on both sides.
All the yards I have been on reasonably expect payment up front. Some have been DD on the first of the month. Others a bill.
I would be careful.

 

[AmyMay]

No it’s not normal. They also can’t take a lien on your horse for one weeks missed livery.

Please move.

 

[TheSubwayDino]

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable. Feel they're trying to get around taxes or something. Cash in hand feels it can get mess things up especially with their contract stating they can sell your horse if you miss one payment.

If you are going through with it, make sure each time you pay you and the YO have a written agreement on the -
Time
Amount of money
Next amount due
And both your signatures

Imo it sounds really sketchy, I would move. It feels a minor slip up could cause a multitude of issues

 

[I'm Dun]

The lien is a very common clause. I think most places with contracts I have been at have had it in. And some places do insist on cash. I've always taken it out from the machine in one go at roughly the same time so there's some sort of record.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

1. No, it isnt usual to be required to pay cash for livery.
2. No, I've never heard of a clause that permits the YO to sell your horse if you miss 1 week livery payment. It's something occasionally put in some contracts as a last resort to collect outstanding moneys but not that soon!

Their yard, they can request what they like though.... I'd be looking for somewhere else and not paying for 'facilities promised ' but not yet delivered.

 

[Starzaan]

It absolutely isn't normal. I have run a lot of livery yards, both for myself and for other people, and although we have always had a clause about selling horses or belongings to recover unpaid livery, it certainly wasn't for just a week!

Cash payments absolutely suggest a tax fiddle. All very odd, I'd get out asap.

 

[Berpisc]

For all the above reasons I would start looking for somewhere else sharpish.

 

[Melody Grey]

It’s a tax fiddle.....which would make me wonder whether they had other necessaries; adequate insurance, planning consent etc.

 

[Gloi]

I would ask for and keep receipts. It is not normal to always be asked to pay in cash but there is a chance the yard has been having a lot of trouble with non payers so if you like the place ask if you can set up a direct debit.

 

[mariew]

How long has said facilities been promised...? You are paying a premium on a promise by the sounds of it. I'd rather pay a premium for actual facilities! I'd be moving somewhere else pdq.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s perfectly legal to ask to be paid with cash and although clearly unreasonable the week late and sell and the demand for cash may just indicate that they are super cautious about non payment perhaps they have been burned in the past
Only you can decide if you want to stay there however you must must get signed receipts for every payment if they quibble about that you need to more on fast .I would also remove the exact amount of cash from your account the day you pay them and keep the receipts and write on what it’s for
Sometimes businesses who ask for cash are not evading tax they have gone over their overdraft limit and are keeping the show on the road that way .

 

[Getbackboys]

or maybe they want ready cash because it is ready cash, setting up direct debits is all well and good what happens if there are no funds in the bank account to pay the direct debit, so they might just be protecting themselves. keep a receipt book. maybe they have been caught out before and use the saying horse will be sold to replay unpaid livery to scare people in to not defaulting on paying their livery. just playing devils advocate

 

[poiuytrewq]

So I’d personally not be adverse to paying cash (although a properly run business should of course accept bacs)
I would want a receipt and if not be signing anything saying they can take your horse after one missed weeks payment, that’s crazy!
I always paid my livery on time, but once I was ill and another livery did my horse for a few weeks, would that have been enough for me to have lost him? Ridiculous and with a cash payment you have no proof even if you had paid.

 

[Goldie's mum]

Who else uses this yard? Can you get talking to them & see how long they've been there?

 

[Lois Lame]

I'd not be adverse to paying cash either, and have done so in the past, but their statement about being able to sell a client's horse if that client is one week late in paying AND the fact you would be paying for non exsistent facilities would have me very concerned.

(Bit late to the thread sorry.)

 

[Greylegs]

I’m not averse to paying cash for livery and have done so many times in the past. The YO’s tax affairs are their business, not mine, so what they do with the money once they’ve pocketed it is up to them.

However, you do need some sort of record that you’ve paid; even a notebook with dates and a signature confirming payment would suffice in the event of any query.

However, I would be very uncomfortable about a couple of things. Firstly, them saying they’ll sell your horse in the event of none payment, and, secondly, the fact that you’re paying for facilities which are yet to be delivered. All of this would have me out of there ASAP, regardless of how convenient the place is.

 

[Millie-Rose]

As a livery yard owner I always preferred baccs! I did take cash but only one out of 25 liveries paid that way. Makes it so much easier when doing tax returns as basically just gave the accountant a year's worth of bank statements and the list of cash payments was pretty small. As others have said insisting on cash sounds like a tax dodge or that they are over their overdraft. We had a clause in our contracts about holding belongings in lieu of payment but made it clear it was a last resort. Selling a horse would be way too much hassle as you'd have to pay to keep it until sold and the non payers on our yard had the sort of horses that were borderline rescue cases so essentially worthless. We only twice had to hold belongings and didn't sell them but held onto them until debt was paid. Worked in both cases although one still took a year to pay! I believe it's not actually legal to put a lien on a horse anyway but can see why yards put it in to scare the non payers. With the facilities is there any sign of them appearing. We didn't have a completed arena when we first opened in the Spring but it was in progress and had a grass paddock to ride in. People could see it progressing though and we gave a firm date for completion which when we over ran by 5 weeks we gave every livery a small refund of I think it was £80 each in compensation for the inconvenience. I think this yard throws up a few red flags and I would think carefully about staying.

 

[twobearsarthur]

I have known of yards that only take cash payments and they've all been a tax/benefits scam. Without proof of payment when they sell your horse how do you prove you’ve been paying your livery on time. I absolutely wouldn’t get mixed up on this. At the very least I would want a receipt. But I wouldn’t be happy paying for facilities that don’t yet exist. There are too many cons to warrant the pro of convenience for me.

 

[Leandy]

I've kept horses at livery for decades and never paid in cash. I have always had a contract and paid by standing order a month in advance, or in arrears with a deposit up front but that is pretty much the same thing. There may also be an up front deposit on top of that at some yards. I wouldn't be adverse to paying in cash if I was receiving an invoice and also a receipt though. The livery owners' lien you mention is normal in principle in a well drawn up contract to protect the livery owner although I'm not sure about any time period. In practice I can't imagine they would try to use it unless they had exhausted other methods of recouping unpaid livery. It would be a lot of hassle to actually try to sell your horse and likely to take much longer than a week anyway. I would also be cautious about paying for facilities which are yet to be provided. It would be more reasonable just to pay for what is actually available eg it will be x amount until the arena is build and then increase to y amount and then when the horse-walker is in the livery will increase again to z to include use of that - that sort of thing.

 

[fidleyspromise]

I have paid cash on a few yards. I didn't get receipts for them. Two yards I had a contract, one I didn't.
There was no lien in any contracts I've had.
Main thing was I trusted my yard owners and had a good relationship with them. They had good reputations.

Without knowing the yo or their reputation it sounds dodgy. I'd speak to other liveries. Have they been there a while? Does the place have a high turnover of liveries? What sort of facilities haven't been delivered and when were they promised?

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

This insistence for "cash" thingy sounds about as fishy as a dead mackerel to me!! Smacks of a nice little HMRC fiddle, cash-in-the-hand and keep schtuum!! Very stupid basically, coz twits like this invariably get too clever for themselves and catch themselves out.

I'm a YO and this sort of thing frankly makes my p!ss boil. Puts us all in a bad light. Things done under the counter are usually things done shabbily and badly, and that includes care of horses IME.

OP sorry but I would advise you strongly to find another yard ASAP. You obviously have initial misgivings about this yard; and for the sake of your horse if nothing else I think you need to take heed of your own concern and find somewhere else as soon as is practicable.

 

[Lois Lame]

I agree, MiJodsR2BlinkinTite. (That reminds me, I must get some more jods.)

The yard at which I paid cash it was because it was my choice, not the YO's. It was one month in advance, and I'd drive or walk up to the house and poke the envelope with the cash through the slot in the front door. Receipts were written, but only ages later, as a bunch. One could also pay by cheque. The preferred method of payment for them was bank transfer (we put the money in their account - they didn't withdraw it from ours).

To pay for wonderful things that do not yet exist is just ridiculous. When this place I was at changed hands, for the first year things seemed fine. But finally, true colours were revealed. More than half of us left (including me). We had no trust in the new owners.

 

[ponynutz]

Surely people can't sell things that they do not own simply because it is just on their property?

 

[Leandy]

Surely people can't sell things that they do not own simply because it is just on their property?

Its not just because its on their property, it is because there is an agreement with the asset owner that if the asset owner owes money to the lien holder then they can take the asset to sell to satisfy the debt. It is just like taking security over any other asset for a debt owed, so eg when the bank can sell your house under the terms of the mortgage if you stop making your mortgage payments to repay the debt to the bank.