Livery Yards can't bill wormers??

[criso]

I was looking on the Intelligent worming site and saw the following statement

•It is against the law for yard owners to sell or rebill wormers to liveries. Intelligent Worming will ensure that your yard does not break this restriction.

Is this true, I have been on 4 livery yards who all bill their wormers back to the clients and this seems normal practice.

 

[Starzaan]

If it is then I'm in trouble. I buy wormer in bulk so that I know all the horses on my yard are done at the same time, and covered for the same length of time.

It's also cheaper for my liveries if I buy in bulk and then bill them for it at the end of the month.

 

[Bigginge]

The sale of wormers is restricted to licence so yes I guess if livery yards (re)sell to liveries without a licence it would be breaking the rules. never really thought about it as we all buy our own and work out worming schedules on a field by field basis depending on peoples preferences.

 

[WelshD]

When you buy any medicine that is POM or sold by a competant, trained person (wormers fall in to the second category) you arent supposed to pass the drugs on to someone else, the seller should satisfy themselves that the drugs are for use on your own animals only

Re-billing the wormers probably demonstrates that the buyer isnt using the drugs on their own animals hence the livery yards refusal to do so

The xception being where the purchaser is themselves licenced to sell the wormers on

I'm not 100% of the ins and outs of it but would suggest that this livery yard is correct and others were wrong to re-bill

 

[criso]

True which is why so many yards do it.


Here's the link to the page

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

It's just a company trying to scare people into using their service. If the yard wants the horses wormed and the owner does too, then who is going to report the yard owner? Surely not their own liveries, who as Starzaan points out, are getting cheap wormers.

 

[criso]

It's not the yard that is saying it but here

http://www.intelligentworming.co.uk/joinintelligentworming-*******.asp

This is done with the vets knowledge, vet in question advises the yard.

 

[WelshD]

I guess it could depend on how its done

If the livery yard owner buys for animals under their care and then re-bills as a 'worming service' it may be a loophole

If they itemised the wormer as '1 x syringe of Superworm' it may be more problematic

 

[criso]

It's just a company trying to scare people into using their service. If the yard wants the horses wormed and the owner does too, then who is going to report the yard owner? Surely not their own liveries, who as Starzaan points out, are getting cheap wormers.

Actually I've found the yards get them from the vets who are not the cheapest, as they pass the cost on they have no incentive to shop around.

My horse is sensitive to some not all wormers. I am away for work and got a text saying they are going to worm him with something he is allergic to and I am terrified they are going to worm him while I am away even though I texted asking if we could discuss when I got back.

He is currently on box rest and has been since the last worming so not putting anyone at risk.

The reason I was looking was that I was hoping to suggest our yard take a less aggressive approach than blanket worming everything that moves regardless of worm counts.



I have bills which list

1 x Bimectin
or
1 x Panaguard

 

[indiat]

My YO worms all the animals on her premises herself, so I suppose the bill for the wormer is tecnically for a service? And she is the competant person the wormer has been sold to and she is not selling it on to anyone else.

 

[criso]

My YO worms all the animals on her premises herself, so I suppose the bill for the wormer is tecnically for a service? And she is the competant person the wormer has been sold to and she is not selling it on to anyone else.

Good point, ours does some of the full liveries but not if they are difficult. DIYs do their own. I did mine last time as I was up anyway.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

If your yard was going to use something on your horse that he's allergic to, why did you only text saying you wanted to discuss it? You need to text telling them not to use it as horse is allergic, surely? If they've already given it, I hope the horse is ok.

 

[Elbie]

If your yard was going to use something on your horse that he's allergic to, why did you only text saying you wanted to discuss it?

That's what I was thinking

Same as a previous poster, I would think yards could get around it by charging you to worm the horse as opposed to billing the actual wormer to you.

 

[criso]

I texted them telling them that and which chemicals to avoid so would they not worm him till i return.

They argued back that they wanted all the horses done at the same time.

I pointed out that box rest took the urgency out of the issue. and said on my return I would be happy to discuss alternatives to ensure my horse and everyone elses was safe and could liaise with their vets if required.

 

[Wagtail]

Interesting. I, like Starzaan buy in bulk online and then charge the liveries the cost. Everyone saves that way. I always shop around for the cheapest price, so don't understand the comment made suggesting YO's don't have incentive to do this. They have their own horses too, surely?

 

[martlin]

I also buy wormers in bulk and charge liveries for worming. As I have my own horses, I have very much of an incentive to shop around

 

[criso]

I always shop around for the cheapest price, so don't understand the comment made suggesting YO's don't have incentive to do this.

The yards i have been at have bought from the vets directly.

The price I have been charged was so much compared to online shops I use regularly I even wondered if they added extra. But know the vets probably comparing prices for ACP and Bute.
e.g. £18 for something the pet medicine company charges about £12 for.

 

[Elbie]

I texted them telling them that and which chemicals to avoid so would they not worm him till i return.

They argued back that they wanted all the horses done at the same time.

I pointed out that box rest took the urgency out of the issue. and said on my return I would be happy to discuss alternatives to ensure my horse and everyone elses was safe and could liaise with their vets if required.

Phew - I thought you meant you just text them to say "don't worm mine"!

Bit worrying that your yard would argue it despite knowing your horse is allergic to a number of the chemicals. If he got ill would they seriously want that on their conscience?

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I would think yards could also get round it by saying they've bought wormer on your behalf with your knowledge. You buy wormer for "horses in your care" I think, rather than "horses you own". Buying for a livery horse fits this and IMO asking for the cost of something you've bought on someone's behalf is not the same as selling to them. If the yard buys expensive wormers you could buy the same drug cheaper elsewhere and worm horse in yard owners presence so they know its been done. Though I agree with you OP about not bothering to worm while on box rest.

 

[SpottedCat]

It's definitely illegal, and lots of yards still do it! Wormers can only be sold by a licenced person, so as a YO if you don't have a licence and you buy wormer then sell to your liveries, you are breaking the law.

 

[criso]

Phew - I thought you meant you just text them to say "don't worm mine"!

Bit worrying that your yard would argue it despite knowing your horse is allergic to a number of the chemicals. If he got ill would they seriously want that on their conscience?

Actually it was about 5 texts back and forth but gave you the short version

This is the same ym that tried to argue that there is no difference between unmolassed and molassed sugarbeet for my sugar senstive tb.

 

[acw295]

It's definitely illegal, and lots of yards still do it! Wormers can only be sold by a licenced person, so as a YO if you don't have a licence and you buy wormer then sell to your liveries, you are breaking the law.

yes it is still very common practice but I don't know of any "prosecutions" Our DIY yard stopped doing it a few years ago. We have also now moved to Intelligent Worming (which I can very much recommend too!).

 

[Cinnamontoast]

My yard worm every horse together-last two times they used the same stuff which Westgate reckon is old fashioned and lots of horses are now resistant to it-bit pointless to use the same thing twice and especially as they don't poo pick!

They wormed the horses in the field one day, no keeping in or anything and no telling the owners. Seems to defeat the purpose to worm in the field? Would love to hear from a YO on this.

Also, I think we should be sticking to a proper worming schedule from a vet as opposed to here's what we have....I'm worm counting too and if will ask to be excluded from the worming programme if they don't offer a different wormer next time. Surely worm counting and then using something for tapeworms and encysted redworm would be more sensible? We're just overdosing on chemicals otherwise.

Panacur 10% liquid, for example, is sold for 'those with 12 or more horses to worm so ideal for YOs...' So Intelligentworming best get on to the online pharmaceutical companies!

If anyone uses the RVC and has their worming schedule, I'd be grateful for the generic one. (I have one from my vet but wanted to compare)

 

[criso]

If anyone uses the RVC and has their worming schedule, I'd be grateful for the generic one. (I have one from my vet but wanted to compare)

One yard I was at used an RVC vert but was a while ago. Was very aggressive and we basically worm counted then threw the same wormer at everything regardless of results.

Another yard I was at used Park Vets who recommended different wormers for the horses that had high worm counts to those like mine who always had clear so that was better but still more than intelligent worming would have recommended.

 

[acw295]

My yard worm every horse together-last two times they used the same stuff which Westgate reckon is old fashioned and lots of horses are now resistant to it-bit pointless to use the same thing twice and especially as they don't poo pick!

They wormed the horses in the field one day, no keeping in or anything and no telling the owners. Seems to defeat the purpose to worm in the field? Would love to hear from a YO on this.

Also, I think we should be sticking to a proper worming schedule from a vet as opposed to here's what we have....I'm worm counting too and if will ask to be excluded from the worming programme if they don't offer a different wormer next time. Surely worm counting and then using something for tapeworms and encysted redworm would be more sensible? We're just overdosing on chemicals otherwise.

The Panacur is sold for 'those with 12 or more horses to worm so ideal for YOs...' So Intelligentworming best get on to the online pharmaceutical companies!

If anyone uses the RVC and has their worming schedule, I'd be grateful for the generic one. (I have one from my vet but wanted to compare)

That's what I love about the Intelligent wormign system, they worm count to determine what each horse needs to be wormed with - not all horses get the same thing at the same time and they do check for resistance. Molly showed resistance to one of the drugs (I forget which) so she gets different combos to others in her group. We've 30+ horsees that they've divided into about 6 groups according to their worming risks and profiles and they are all on a schedule that suits them. 2 years in to their programme we're doing 4-5 egg counts and 2 wormers a year (but that will flex depending on results of the egg counts).

They will come out and do yard talks - we had them out to talk to everyone before YO signed up to it for the yard, so we got to ask all about it first. I've spent less on worling since we've been on it than we did before. There are other companies that do the same - but I was on ayrd with a vet programme before and when we switched to IW found that Molly acually had a high count - so that programme had been waste of money and effort :/

 

[criso]

To that end we consider that the livery contract/T & Cs between the yard owner and livery clients should clearly state that the livery yard owner will purchase VPS wormers on behalf of, and in agreement with, the clients and recover the costs of those products through the livery charges.

.'

Yes mine says

The OWNER must follow liivery yard worming programme and purchase wormers from livery yard which will be provided at the correct times for worming

Although it then goes on to say exceptions can be made if you have a clear worm count.

 

[putasocinit]

I think it is wrong for livery yards to buy wormers and then pass the bill on to the livery and my reasons are as follows:

1) livery could find a cheaper wormer
2) some horses due to size may need x 2 wormers, livery yard on supplied x 1
3) the type of wormer may not agree or be in context with what horse was previously wormed with.

I think whilst livery yards should have a worming programme in place it should be a mutual decision for each livery to supply their own type of wormer, produce the packaging after worming if necessary and the yard worm together on a specified date.

 

[mini-eventer]

Well our yard uses intelligent worming and them bills that back to the liveries...

 

[criso]

I think intelligent worming are saying that by selling you a whole package, analysis, advice etc they get round this rule.

 

[NewSeeker]

Whilst it is responsible to ensure horses are wormed, I'm concerned that some YOs may dictate a compulsory 'one size fits all' method, rather than treating the horses as per their individual needs, bearing in mind that worming does not eradicate worms from all horses and pasture completely but rather controls them. Another concern is whether all YOs actually have the knowledge to choose the correct worming regimes or egg count programme that will actually cover all parasites throughout the year. I don't want to offend any YOs who are competent, as I'm sure many are, but I have come across some YOs who use rather old-fashioned incorrect worming regimes i.e. the same product twice a year full stop and the liveries just have to go along with it regardless, whilst the YO makes a profit. I know selling/re-selling wormers is illegal, but would like to know is advising on/dictating a regime also illegal?