Loan gone sour! Advice please!

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hjsanders

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Hi all,

I have had a broodmare on loan since June last year and had a lovely foal out of her this summer. She went extremely foal proud and has acted dangerously on several occasions. I took her knowing that she was a 'chestnut mare', but the stud owner where she is kept said she's never seen a horse that bad. Weaning is happening this friday so I got in contact with the mare's owner earlier in the month.

It started all pleasantly as it has been for the whole agreement. She said that she moved yards and house so didnt have space for the mare to come back. I then told her how bad the mare had been since having the foal. The owner admitted than on several occasions that she had considered having the mare PTS (as a foal had an autoimmune disease, later in life steroid treatment for autoimmune disease led to poor hock joint development and therefore unable to be ridden, hence now a broodie) and that with her unpredictable behavior around the foal that she would consider having PTS now.

It was all very dramatic! I felt like she was calling my bluff and that I would turn around and say 'no no its ok! lets not get that extreme' but i cant afford two horses and I dont enjoy having to be careful around the mare all the time and not being able to do anything with my own foal because of her.

For the last month I have been trying to sort this, having taken two weeks off uni to come back for the owner to see the mare and to be let down and messed around. She makes excuse after excuse and it has now resulted in her saying the she does want the mare PTS but wont give me written conformation or payment for the kennelman to come.

I dont know where I stand anymore. I have given written termination that the loan ends 1st of nov and that I relinquish all financial and care responsibility but now she has started to ignore me.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
What does your loan contract say? Have you followed the notice period? If so, charge her for livery and invoice her and send letters recorded delivery.

That is the legal response. From a humanitarian response, poor bloody mare. If you can't afford to keep two horses, why breed a foal? What if it develops the same behavioural problems as the dam? How can you look after a foal if taking time away from university for this is too much?

Maybe the owner is trying to find somewhere else for the mare to go...is there really that much of a rush to kill her, now that you have had a foal off her?
 
Good grief, you say that you knew she was a chestnut mare with problems before you decided to have a foal out of her. Why on earth would you choose a horse with all those problems to breed from? Fingers crossed your foal has none of her traits whether inbred or learnt.

I think there's little you can do for the poor mare now other than a final act of kindness and pay for the hunt to destroy her yourself. That will be cheaper than paying livery for her for some months to come.
 
jemima*askin said:
Good grief, you say that you knew she was a chestnut mare with problems before you decided to have a foal out of her. Why on earth would you choose a horse with all those problems to breed from? Fingers crossed your foal has none of her traits whether inbred or learnt.

I think there's little you can do for the poor mare now other than a final act of kindness and pay for the hunt to destroy her yourself. That will be cheaper than paying livery for her for some months to come.
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Completely agree.
Very silly decision to breed from a mare which behaves dangerously.
 
Pay for her to be pts yourself. Dont you owe her that much after she's given you her womb for hire and delivered you a healthy foal?

you come across a little callous it has to be said. Doesn't sound like the best mare to breed from anyway to be honest. Lets hope you keep the foal for life.
 
So you loaned a brood mare with conformational problems, bred from her and now the foal is about to be weaned you want to give the mare back but the owner has said no? Do you have a contract saying what notice you have to give to return the mare?
 
There is no notice period on the loan agreement.
I put enough money aside to have the mare and foal until weaning, I earn enough to keep one horse on full livery only. My financial circumstances are not the issue here.
It was at the owners suggestion that the mare was PTS, not mine.
 
Why loan a horse to breed from if you couldn't afford two long term? Surely you would have been better off just buying a foal?
 
There are plenty enough well bred, good conformationed foals out of good parents that need homes. Why breed one out of a less than satisfactory mare? Why go the exspense of keeping the mare, vets fees, stud fee's et al when you could buy a foal to dump on someone else to bring up whilst you are at uni?
 
hjsanders said:
There is no notice period on the loan agreement.
I put enough money aside to have the mare and foal until weaning, I earn enough to keep one horse on full livery only. My financial circumstances are not the issue here.
It was at the owners suggestion that the mare was PTS, not mine.
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I don't think its any great secret that breeding foals with uncertain futures is to be discouraged. If you have the knowledge to breed a foal, you must have the knowledge to know this. I'm trying not to comment on the notion of keeping a foal on full livery, as opposed to one of the many other options open to you in the horsekeeping world. I can understand breeding from a mare well known to you to a set of characteristics you want to reproduce, but loaning a mare and then throwing her out like a piece of rubbish is callous.

And why take on a horse on a loan contract with no period of notice specified? And since you knew the end date of the loan, why all the rush to return the horse now? Surely you could have planned this in advance.

I'm sorry, but I think, as is so often the case with loans, most of your problems are of your own making.
 
From other thread;-
My 'once in a lifetime' popped out 2 months ago and is the love of my life. The reason I chose to breed now was due to opportunity just happening to arise. I was due to finish vet school in three years time and this tied in with potential foaly being ready to start playing around with when I graduated. I had a lot of friends around that I was able to call in favours off and support me whilst away so not being able to take the mare to uni with me wasn’t an issue. The mare was given to me on loan, an opinionated standard 'chestnut mare' British Warmblood by Wanniger x Dallas, whose breeding, movement and looks made up for her bad attitude. Spurs in her hocks put an early end to her dressage career so although bred for great things her true talent was never realised (although standing in a field for 18 months has suited her very well!) After shopping around looking at a lot of German stunners and contemplating completely blowing my budget on an 'oh if only!' dad, a friend turned round to me and gave me the best horsey advice I have ever received. She asked me 'Did I want to enjoy my horse or my horse's breeding?' and what she said made perfect sense. With a very hectic career ahead of me and not being blessed the talent or the finances to whiz a horse around Burghley, that question brought me back down to earth. I chose Old Leighlin (IDSH), recommended to me by hunting farmer old boy. Not fashionable or flashy, he was local, well mannered, put together and a good solid type. What swung it for me was the fact he was the same age as me and still going out hunting every season. An added bonus that he was well within price range. He was just a good allrounder reliable stallion, a type that seems to be getting harder to find.
So now I have my little bay colt who I can’t wait to have many an adventure on. It turns out now that after more research that he is half-brother to Minuteman, Rumpy Pumpy and Trefeinon Icon so maybe that eventing career isn’t out of the question! ""

Does seem very callous to use mare's womb to produce your dream foal and she gets rewarded by a bullet in her brain. :( and yes I get it that it's not your idea..but still............................"................... :(
 
OK so whilst recognising there's strong feeling about this topic on here; the MAIN issue seems to be that the "loaner" doesn't want to continue with the loan but the "owner" is making it virtually impossible for her to hand the mare back.

There was a very similar thread on here recently..............

There is ONE thing I guess, to be grateful for, and that is the fact that the owner IS prepared to consider the PTS option for humane reasons i.e. behavioural. It would appear that the mare's behaviour is/has become dangerous to the extent that this would appear a viable option, BUT one wonders whether she may revert to "normal" behaviour once the foal has weaned? It just might be worth waiting and seeing!

I CAN see where OP is coming from, in that she's got a horse on loan which she now wants to hand back, and the owner it would appear patently doesn't want the mare back, full stop.

Yet another loan gone wrong, yet another horse that no-one obviously wants and no-one knows what TF to do with it. Meanwhile owner is "unavailable" and is doing sweet FA to take responsibility for THEIR bl@ddy horse. FFS. Words fail me.
 
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Poor soul. I don't really understand why you're in this situation in the first place?

Why do people think breeding is a good alternative for their lame horses!!
 
To be fair, loaning a broodmare to breed yourself a foal and then giving the mare back at the end is a pretty standard thing....
Surely the mares owner is the one at fault here!? Can't help but think this will turn into yet another HHO witch hunt...

OP I would just write to the owner, recorded delivery that you are sending them THEIR horse back. Give them a months notice, then take her back to where you picked her up from.
And enjoy your foal.

I totally understand that breeding willy nilly is a bad idea, but I don't really see a problem with breeding yourself a forever horse, from 2 parents which you have chosen and therefore probably like.
 
And the fact the mare will have past her temperament on to the foal, my friend had a mare that was foal proud best mum in the world, but you took your life into your own hands if you went anywhere near her baby, once weaned she was back to normal, but her foals had the same temper as she did.
 
The loan certainly has gone sour hasn't it - for the poor mare not for any of the supposedly intelligent, rational and caring people in this sad saga. Poor horse, what a sad and tragic life to end like this...womb used by totally irresponsible loaner and with consent of equally totally irresponsible owner.....job done, mare to be disposed of with as little trouble as possible to either loaner or owner. >:(
 
CrazyCobLady said:
Totally disgusted.
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Me too.

This poor mare is just a hormonal, protective mama. In all likelihood her behaviour will settle down when her foal is weaned. Not that you or her owner give a **** about what happens to her once her foal is weaned!!

What on earth were you thinking, breeding from a mare who has poor conformation and behavioural issues??
 
Patterdale said:
To be fair, loaning a broodmare to breed yourself a foal and then giving the mare back at the end is a pretty standard thing....
Surely the mares owner is the one at fault here!? Can't help but think this will turn into yet another HHO witch hunt...

OP I would just write to the owner, recorded delivery that you are sending them THEIR horse back. Give them a months notice, then take her back to where you picked her up from.
And enjoy your foal.

I totally understand that breeding willy nilly is a bad idea, but I don't really see a problem with breeding yourself a forever horse, from 2 parents which you have chosen and therefore probably like.
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I agree, enough with the OP bashing!

OP I have no advice but felt that someone needed to be in your corner.
 
The mare might well return to 'normal' once the foal is taken off her. You're a vet student, OP? Jesus, I'm in despair. If the mare was already a typical 'chestnut mare' with medical issues, why the hell did you breed? There are plenty of well bred foals out there for the asking. :frown3:

However, the owner needs to face up to reality, if the mare was taken on loan as a broody and has now done as asked, then the owner needs to take her back, it's her responsibility and will be easier in the foal for mama to be gone.
 
Loaning a well bred animal to breed from is quite common, so I don't really understand all the hoo-haa.
Fact is that the OWNER suggested PTS, as obviously doesn't want the horse back again, and the OP sensibly needs to have this in writing, simply to protect herself.

I think OP, all you can do is as suggested above, write a recorded delivery letter and then when the decision is confirmed have her PTS at your place, unless the owner agrees to have her back. State that otherwise you will delivery it back to her home! The only sensible thing you can do really. It will cost a bit, but less than keeping her at livery for weeks (and I now get behind the sofa for all the flack that suggestion will receive!)
 
oh come on guys, don't villanise the OP here - She loaned a broodmare for gods sake, with the implicit intention of breeding a foal that she very much wants. Where is the problem with that? Why should she have to have the money to keep two horses? She didn't buy the brood mare (obviously for this very reason!), she loaned it with the intention of giving it back after breeding a foal that she does want to keep. This isn't an uncommon practice in the breeding world . All she wants to do is give her rightful notice to terminate the loan - Any person who has a horse on loan surely has the right to do that for whatever reason!

From the previous post it sounded as if she really thought through what she wanted to do and selected the parents accordingly. Considering she was loaned a 'brood mare', it would seem that the owner had at least an inkling that she would want to give it back after the foal was weaned. The problem here is the irresponsibility of the owner not the loaner, and the OP Isn't the one who wants to put the horse to sleep!

OP, You definitely need to send a registered letter terminating the loan as your first port of call.
 
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