Loan horse rearing (long)

Buzz1

Buzz1

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My friend has got a horse out on loan she has known this horse for a long time and has had it on loan for 6 month (she previously shared with owner) the horse is 6 yr old but very quiet would hack out alone etc schooling not great but very trustworthy. The owner has had little to no involvement with this horse since she took it on loan despite numerous phone calls texts etc. I had a back person out to look at my horse and saddle fitter and she looked at the loan horse, lonie bought a new saddle for horse as the one it came with we were told not to use it as it does not fit and could hurt her back (Back lady said no serious damage had een done so far) she contacted owner to advise what the saddler/back person said but no reply. She then decided to buy a new saddle for the horse, all fine until last week.
She had taken the horse out on a hack and she started napping slightly friend thought not to much of it, a few days later when in the school she rode it again and started bucking and rearing, my friend is not the best rider in the world and got off as not confident, lunged horse, got back on same again.
I went up last night lunged horse fine walk trot canter, friend got on 3 steps and she reared up. Lunged horse again I got on reared up verticle. Thought maybe saddle nipping took saddle off and got on bareback (I know stupid idea but at the time sounded good) again horse went up verticle and I slipped off her (OUCH!).

The horse teeth are not due to November, saddle just checked (she had been riding horse for a few months in new saddle all fine)

Do you think the horse is taking the p**s? Could it be the teeth? Would you send it back?

I think she should send it back as it could be anything and at the end of the day the horse does not belong to her to investigate, she loves this horse though so does not want to give it up.

all advise welcome
 
It could well be that the horse is going through a teenage phase at six, and is trying it on, and has realised that it doesn't have to work as your friend is not experienced enough to nip the napping etc in the bud. Rearing quite often comes with napping.

Could you get a good local instructor to come out and assess the situation. Even better if one could get on it, or someone who is a very experienced rider. Then you know a bit more about the situation.

If there is a reason, and your friend is happy to deal with whatever need doing, then fine, carry on (with instructor's help hopefully). If not, send it back. You don't want to put yourselves ina situation where you could get hurt, and its not your horse, so you can easily remove the danger! Be very sure though, if you keep hold of this horse, and carry on without help andthe horse is learning to nap, you could be training the horse to be dangerous and unrideable in the future, when someone more experienced could sort it out quickly. Do the best thing for yourselves and the horse. Good luck, and stay safe.x
 
it could be that the previous saddle didn't fit well, and therefore limited the horse's muscling up underneath... perhaps the new saddle allowed the horse to start to build up muscle... and therefore is now tight...?

that is a fairly common saddle fitting problem... :)
 
Thanks, think she should send it back, I am not prepared to ride a horse that is mis behaving and hurting myself so I cant ride my own, if it was my own boy then I would try to sort it out or even if it belonged to her just dont think i should be risking myself for someone elses horse when the owner clearly isn't interested.
 
It could be a whole number off things and needs ruleing out one by one but I will say this is why I will never loan a horse again, people will just give back a horse if they get any problems and not perpaired to look into it as it isn't their own horse and easier to send it back. Makes me mad. And the fact that your friend has shared this horse for a while and must know it
 
That does annoy me when someone has a horse on loan that the first sign of a prob and horse is sent straight back without the small things being checked first.
get the saddle fitter back out, if the saddle is a bit tight it will be hurting the horse and even thought you got on bare back it was straight after being ridden in the saddle.
Get a experienced local instructor out to see the problem it may just be an extension of the nappying and trying it on, an experienced instructor will work through this in a shorter period of time than you or your friend.
 
miss_bird said:
That does annoy me when someone has a horse on loan that the first sign of a prob and horse is sent straight back without the small things being checked first.
get the saddle fitter back out, if the saddle is a bit tight it will be hurting the horse and even thought you got on bare back it was straight after being ridden in the saddle.
Get a experienced local instructor out to see the problem it may just be an extension of the nappying and trying it on, an experienced instructor will work through this in a shorter period of time than you or your friend.
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It does really get my back up but people won't look into problems or spend the money, it's people which this attitude off " send it home" who should never loan horses. Sorry but does really rattle me.
 
I wouldn't dream of sending it back yet. What if it is your friend that has caused the problem in the first place? It's unfair to bin this situation with the owner regardless of their involvment. When I have loaned horses I have been responsible for its insurance/shoes/tack/wellbeing/vetting etc etc. My last loan horse dumped and trampled me...so what? It happens from time to time.

Your friend needs lessons and her wallet. Getting through this will make her a more competant rider.
 
What kind of padding is used under the saddle? Isit a poly pad or a thin numnah?

1. Get the saddle fitter back out... horses shapes change all the time even just from an increase/decrease in work due to muscle shapes changing etc
2. Get the dentist out even if it is early
3. Get back lady out
4. Get an intructor

If there is still a problem I would say it's deffo napping. Prettty much what everyone else has said really... please don't "just send it home" you wouldn't sell your own horse at any sight of a problem. Unfortunaltey horses are unpridictable and hard to read. Personally that's what I find interesting and fun about them :)
 
Though I agree in principle about investigating a problem with a loan horse before giving up I wouldn't automatically assume that every situation is the same. I had a horse on loan whilst my baby filly was growing up. I am an experienced rider and committed owner. The horse in question was 6 and started napping and rearing almost immediately. I got teeth, back, saddle etc checked to no avail. I also had no contact or support from the owner who just kept saying must be something you are doing, never done it before.
I sent the horse back after it nearly killed me going up and over on me (for the 2nd time) - it was a 17hh ID! I was left with a very painful hernia and spasming back which took about 3 mths to heal!! After investigation I discovered that actually this horse was known for this behaviour and its methodology for stopping work was to throw itself on the floor!
If in a similar position again, after ruling out the obvious, I would immediately send a loan horse back, I wouldn't risk myself. If it was my horse, well it would be another matter entirely.

I am not saying the above applies in this case but every situation is different and your friend should do whatever feels right for them, if they don't feel up to the job of schooling the horse through it, simply don't and return the horse before more damage is done by not being able to overcome the problem.
 
Sunny08 said:
Though I agree in principle about investigating a problem with a loan horse before giving up I wouldn't automatically assume that every situation is the same. I had a horse on loan whilst my baby filly was growing up. I am an experienced rider and committed owner. The horse in question was 6 and started napping and rearing almost immediately. I got teeth, back, saddle etc checked to no avail. I also had no contact or support from the owner who just kept saying must be something you are doing, never done it before.
I sent the horse back after it nearly killed me going up and over on me (for the 2nd time) - it was a 17hh ID! I was left with a very painful hernia and spasming back which took about 3 mths to heal!! After investigation I discovered that actually this horse was known for this behaviour and its methodology for stopping work was to throw itself on the floor!
If in a similar position again, after ruling out the obvious, I would immediately send a loan horse back, I wouldn't risk myself. If it was my horse, well it would be another matter entirely.

I am not saying the above applies in this case but every situation is different and your friend should do whatever feels right for them, if they don't feel up to the job of schooling the horse through it, simply don't and return the horse before more damage is done by not being able to overcome the problem.
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Crikey! Sounds like you had a lucky escape there!
I agree if it's dangerous then dnt put yourself at risk but dnt give up too early :cool:
 
Monsters said:
It could be a whole number off things and needs ruleing out one by one but I will say this is why I will never loan a horse again, people will just give back a horse if they get any problems and not perpaired to look into it as it isn't their own horse and easier to send it back. Makes me mad. And the fact that your friend has shared this horse for a while and must know it
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kaylouise67 said:
I wouldn't dream of sending it back yet. What if it is your friend that has caused the problem in the first place? It's unfair to bin this situation with the owner regardless of their involvment. When I have loaned horses I have been responsible for its insurance/shoes/tack/wellbeing/vetting etc etc. My last loan horse dumped and trampled me...so what? It happens from time to time.

Your friend needs lessons and her wallet. Getting through this will make her a more competant rider.
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That would be fair enough if the owner had sent it with things in the first place that fitted the horse, original saddle does not fit nor would it ever have totally wrong shape for the horse, rugs did not fit, no bridal the list is endless however my friend bought all of these things for this horse, she also has no problem getting out farrier vet etc as she is responsible for this horse also no problem getting a dentist. My concern is that she can go through all this again and find out it is the horse being naughty which she is not equiped to deal with she knows her limitations hence the reason she got the horse in first place becuse she was very quiet.
 
Personally I would get the teeth done and see if that makes the horse any happier.

Its October tomorrow.....and to be fair, the teeth are 'due' if your horse is telling you so, rather than what the calendar says. She is only 6 after all.

Has the new saddle been checked?
 
Buzz1 said:
That would be fair enough if the owner had sent it with things in the first place that fitted the horse, original saddle does not fit nor would it ever have totally wrong shape for the horse, rugs did not fit, no bridal the list is endless however my friend bought all of these things for this horse, she also has no problem getting out farrier vet etc as she is responsible for this horse also no problem getting a dentist. My concern is that she can go through all this again and find out it is the horse being naughty which she is not equiped to deal with she knows her limitations hence the reason she got the horse in first place becuse she was very quiet.
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Hmmmm tough one.

I'd suggest going right back to basics but again, this is time consuming and if it doesn't work....it's right back to square one.

As suggested by others, I think lessons are a must. Some instructors love a challenge and will probably get on themselves.

I hope your friend resolves this. It's horrible when a relationship goes wrong and sometimes it takes a while to fix. I hope she persevers.
 
Yeah said that to her last night to get her teeth checked as near enough November so could be sore mouth as really out of character for the mare to do this, no saddle has not been re checked was fitted around 2 1/2 3 month ago. I will let friend know the opinions and see what she wants to do, it would be so much easier if the owner was interested personally if I put my horse out on loan I would send it with everything he needed and if he needed something like a new saddle I would expect to pay for it as he is my horse, I would also check on him from time to time and have contact with loanie but maybe thats just me
 
Monsters said:
It does really get my back up but people won't look into problems or spend the money, it's people which this attitude off " send it home" who should never loan horses. Sorry but does really rattle me.
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I don't like loans. They are too messy, and too many emotions on both sides are involved.

I think it's naive for an owner, to loan a horse and expect the loaner to sort out and pay for serious re-schooling issues, and spend their own money on saddles, etc.

If you want a project isn’t it better to buy a project? The time and the costs of keeping the horse, re schooling it, etc are the same, but at the end of the day it is your horse, and you don’t have to worry about the owner wanting it back, and you are likely to have a horse worth more than you bought it for.
 
We had two ponies on loan over the years, seperately, neither came with tack, we bought the tack and rugs for them both... Horses shapes change over the years (and especially at the age of this horse, which is still growing) so you can't expect the owner to change tack.

On the flip side, we have loaned two ponies out, sending them with tack and rugs that fitted. One of them was out for four years, and obviously came with different rugs and even some of its tack, as things wear out over the year.

We have had a pony that came back with no notice. We have sent a loan pony back (gave them 6 weeks notice) as it was too much for my son, and started to rear and scare him. Once back with a stronger, braver rider it behaved again (sounds familiar?).

When I have horses out on loan I would not expect to have too much contact with the person that loaned them. Obviously I'd check it from time to time, but basically its their horse while its on loan. Personally, if I owned the horse in this thread, I would WANT them to send it home before my young horse learned to nap and rear even more. The person loaning doesn't sound experienced enough to cope with a youngster - a four/five year old can be pretty dopy, at five/six they can get bolshy and try it on more.

Loaning is a difficult thing, that often goes wrong! I wouldn't loan a horse out ever again. You're better off selling!
 
miss_bird said:
That does annoy me when someone has a horse on loan that the first sign of a prob and horse is sent straight back without the small things being checked first.
get the saddle fitter back out, if the saddle is a bit tight it will be hurting the horse and even thought you got on bare back it was straight after being ridden in the saddle.
Get a experienced local instructor out to see the problem it may just be an extension of the nappying and trying it on, an experienced instructor will work through this in a shorter period of time than you or your friend.
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I agree.
It might not actually be your friends horse but she has taken it on as her own just hasnt actually paid for it.

Work through the obviously solutions, teeth, tack, back (again) instructor, vet.
then if there is a major problem that the loaner isnt able or prepared to deal with then discuss with owner and may give it back,

Obviously dont put yourself in a dangerous situation and get lots of expert advise but
dont give up so easily it could be something simple.
 
I am really surprised no one has mentioned the vet yet. Since the behaviour is uncharacteristic for the horse there is a good chance it is pain related and the best person to confirm or discount this is the vet. I don't really think it's a good idea for anyone else to see the horse before the vet. If he diagnoses a back, teeth or other problem, then he can advise your friend on treatment and recovery options. She can then decide whether to stick with the loan or return the horse. If the vet cannot find anything physically wrong then your friend can decide whether this is a behavioural issue she is willing to address with the help of a professional and/or instructor, or whether she wants to return the horse.
 
"original saddle does not fit nor would it ever have totally wrong shape for the horse"

Here's your problem. I would get a hold of the horse's owner, and let her know she needs to stump up for a saddle. Unless it is part of the terms of the loan that the leasee has to pay for the tack.

ETA If the horse is still misbehaving with new saddle and has been checked by a qualified back person, I would definately get the vet. If it is a full loan then I expect your friend will need to pay for this.
 
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My mare I had suddenly started to nap really badly and would constantly rear and buck as soon as you got on her, previous to that she was good as gold.
i had a chiropractor check her and her saddles checked by a saddler, her teeth had been looked at aswell.
Has your friend changed the feed the horse is on? I used to feed Alfa A but was told the oil can send some horses a bit loopy!
The only other thing I can think of is that the horse may have suffered from back spasms due to the other ill fitting saddle, perhaps your friend could try a specialist equine massage person to free her up.
My horse didn't improve, i believe it was her hormones, then once she was out of season she had just leant how to get her own way and took the mick.
i tried hormone balancers but they didn't make much of a difference, in the end she was just too dangerous for me to ride so I sold her to someone more experienced.
 
I did a masters in psychology and have only just realised that I should be applying what I know to my horses and riding! So here goes....this is what I know about the behaviourist/learning theory approach to rearing.......But first think about:
a) Physical cause: Before looking at the behaviour of rearing however, you first have to rule out a physical cause. It does sound as if you have gone the right route: teeth, back, saddle. It is worth having the vet out though, and perhaps getting them to use a thermographer to show any 'hot spots' which may throw some light. Could also ask for a radiograph - but vet would know best line of approach. Just because however, it seems to have come 'out of the blue' doesn't mean that the behaviour hasn't been building for a while.
b) Feeding: Are you feeding her too much, too many simple carbs, change in diet, etc?
c) Stabling: Have you had to keep in her more (obvious, I know!)
d) Behvaiour of rearing: Rearing is part of the flight response and sometimes used in play. When not part of play/exuberance under saddle, it is known as a conflict behaviour. This means that the horse is in conflict. Under saddle when correctly trained, there are 4 main basic responses that the rider asks for and the horse preforms. These are: a) go, b) stop, c) turn d) yeild. (For example, leaning on the hand/heavy in the hand occurs because the rider has not released the rein pressure at the correct time, [when slowing/stopping.] Releasing the rein pressure is crucial as it shows/rewards the horse for the right response. slowing down. All of this should be performed within 3 beats. If a rider 'holds' onto the reins say, jumping or cantering the horse then won't repsond to a light signal when stop/slow is asked for.
Rearing therefore, normally occurs when both the 'stop' signal and the 'go' signal (and even the turn signal) are applied simultaneously. Aids/cues should never been applied at the same time. As such, there is something wrong with the way the stop/go signals have been taught and used on this horse - therefore, it's rider error as are most horse problems! Also, each rear is REINFORCING. This means that everytime the horse rears it stops the conflicting signals given by the rider. So the horse has learnt that rearing is an effective way to stop the problem!
To stop rearing immediately the rider has to disengage the shoulders or quarters by asking for a tight turn to the left/right. However, in the long term the horse needs re-training in order to fully understand the proper go/stop/turn signals. It sounds like your friend may not be the person to do this as she has probably caused it in the first place. Another rider may well get on the horse and not apply concurring aids but the horse has learnt that this is how it's ridden and rear anyway. That's why a skilled rider should tackle a rearer.
Bucking is caused by problems with both the stop and go response. Bucking involves random accelerations and as such, it is not under the control of the rider. Riders often try to balance by using the reins and pull back. The horse then doesn't respond to the aid to slow because it doesn't really understand what pressure means. Skilled riders may choose to ride the horse forward. Nonetheless, the horse should go back to re-learn the go/stop signals.
Napping occurs when there is a problem with the go response. Again, this should be re-trained by a skilled rider in order to show the horse what the aid really means.
This problem may well be out of the skill of it's present rider. I think you should however, discuss what is happening with the horse's owner, as they have a right to know. It may be a case of lessons/schooling with a professional rider whilst at the same time the present rider becomes better at the basic skills. Or, the owner may decide that she wants to take the horse back. Either way, you have to be honest with both yourself and the horse's owner for the sake of the horse's welfare! Thanks.
 
Thanks Tonks, i believe a lot of what you said applies to this situation, i think the horse has been confused as she is young and friend is not able to teach her the correct way of going and has been asking wrong,
The mare was in season when the initial nap took place so this could also be the problem and has now worked out this is a way to get out of work.
My horse does not live there anymore so have not seen first hand other than last night (I know it was a stupid idea we all have them at some point) how the horse has been over the last week or so
I do also stand by my thoughts of sending the horse back for both friend and horses sake, this is not a matter of money or responsibility as others seem to think but of safety for horse and rider.
Thanks for all advice owner has been contacted hopefully she will come out and see horse.
 
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