Loaner owing money

sarah23

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Please does any body know where I stand. I loaned my horse out but she is sending him back as can't afford to keep him, which i'm not worried about (well I am but nothing I can do about it)

My question is she owes the livery yard she is on some money and she has just told me they won't let me pick him up till it is paid. As it is he is due his yearly jabs by Tuesday which i'm paying for as she can't afford to and I don't want to have to restart them just because she is messing me around Where do I stand on this. Any advice very welcome.
 

Fides

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If the contract states that livery is her responsibility then you are not liable. As the horse is a loan they cannot seize in lieu of 'rent' but will have to chase her for the money...
 

Elsiecat

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The livery yard can't legally keep any horse that isn't theirs and owes them money. Never mind a horse that's on loan to the person that owes them money.
I'd ring the yard to notify them of collection. If they refused I'd ask the police to escort me.

Eta: providing she didn't sign a contract to say in the event or an unpaid bill that they could keep him until money was obtained. But even them as the rightful owner I don't think it would apply.
 

WelshD

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I would sort out the jabs but firmly say that the livery's contract is with the loaner and not you and would refuse to pay

Perhaps the loaner is saying that in the hope you will pay?

I would point out to them that THEIR livery bill will only get bigger if you cannot collect your horse
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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Her problem!

Her contract is with the yard for services she requested.

Nothing to do with horse/you.

Unfortunately with such a short timescale, you have a problem on your hands in time for any negotiation.

I'd be picking up the phone to the YO who has stated the issue & tell them I'd be picking horse up in an hour (or whatever time) and please would they ensure all MY goods & chattels are with MY horse ready for collection - then go & collect horse & equipment. I'd be reminding them that their problem is with the person who should have been paying, not you as the owner, nor with the horse - which requires annual vaccination within 48hrs.
That said, thats what I would do tho.........or I'd just turn up in the box to collect horse, passport & gear as the loaner has requested.....

Good luck - and get the ruddy passport!!
 

sarah23

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Thanks for the advice. I thought they couldn't hold him but just wanted to check.

Thanks Elsiecat I will do that before I pick him up on Monday. What do I tell the police ? and will they have to hand him over ?

Loaner has not requested me to collect so soon but she does want to sent him back ASAP. I have said I will collect him Monday so I can get his Jabs done on Tuesday as their vets want to charge me a fortune for them to do it.

Thank you Fuzzy Furry for your advice as well.
 
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Elsiecat

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If I was in your situation and the YO did refuse to allow you to collect your horse, I'd nip to the local police station and explain your horse is being held over an unpaid bill that has nothing to do with you. (Perhaps bring his passport and some proof of ownership and maybe a contract the loaner has signed with you? Just to back your story up a little). He is your property and can not be held. Although it may well be classed as a civil matter and not a criminal matter.
I know my local police would be happy to escort in this situation but we're quite rural so perhaps you'd struggle slightly in a city. In that event I think I'd turn up with a few big guys. I certainly wouldn't let him stay somewhere which had no legal claim to him anyway. But I doubt it'll come to that. Good luck x
 
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The Fuzzy Furry

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Thanks for the advice. I thought they couldn't hold him but just wanted to check.

Thanks Elsiecat I will do that before I pick him up on Monday. What do I tell the police ? and will they have to hand him over ?

Loaner has not requested me to collect so soon but she does want to sent him back ASAP. I have said I will collect him Monday so I can get his Jabs done on Tuesday as their vets want to charge me a fortune for them to do it.


I'd be going tomorrow morning.............
 

TandD

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If I was in your situation and the YO did refuse to allow you to collect your horse, I'd nip to the local police station and explain your horse is being held over an unpaid bill that has nothing to do with you. (Perhaps bring his passport and some proof of ownership and maybe a contract the loaner has signed with you? Just to back your story up a little). He is your property and can not be held. Although it may well be classed as a civil matter and not a criminal matter.
I know my local police would be happy to escort in this situation but we're quite rural so perhaps you'd struggle slightly in a city. In that event I think I'd turn up with a few big guys. I certainly wouldn't let him stay somewhere which had no legal claim to him anyway. But I doubt it'll come to that. Good luck x

This is good! Do you have a bill of sale for him when you bought him? I'd take this and passport!
 

sarah23

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I have a bill of sale but passport might be a problem as in it's with Weatherbys right now having some papers added as I run out of room for his vac's details. Sent it off last week, so I could ring them to clarify I am owner if needed to.

I thought every thing was ok as i messaged her last week to say don't forget about his jabs. I had no idea of the problem until she told me tonight.
 

TBmare92

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I know of a similar situation but loaner upped and left, leaving the horse abandoned at the livery yard with a large amount of debt. the YO requested the owner of the horse pay for the months of unpaid livery and threatened to sue, however legally they did not have a leg to stand on. you are completely within your rights to take the horse back their problem is with the loanee!! Good luck hope it works out ok! Xx
 

Queenbee

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If at all possible, I would turn up Sunday afternoon if they are expecting you on Monday, just to blow the wind out of their sale incase they try to act like idiots and chain the gate so you can't get in, this is where I see a possible problem. Some people will just say these things, but they know that when push comes to shove they can't do it, so it's all hot air. Others are actually stupid enough to make it hard for you, hoping that if they do you will just pay for the loaners bill to save the hassle.

Now they absolutely can't seize the horse or withold the horse from you, but what they can do and I've hear others have done is they can refuse to let you on their property, they can chain their gates. If you can't gain access to the property, you can't get the horse, regardless of the fact that they are holding it illegally, you can't legally step foot on the property. Hence you would have to call the police, who are never quite clear on the law and advise that this is a civil matter despite the fact that it is in fact theft and they would be permanently depriving you of your property.

As I said, the best way round this and how I would play it is if they expect you on Monday go on Sunday. If you can't go on Sunday, ring up and arrange to go on Tuesday and turn up on Monday. Drive your transport onto the yard. Have an extra pair of hands or two, one or two to collect rugs and tack, one to walk straight to the paddock or stables and collect ned, load up and be gone before they have time to fully process what's happening.
 

Charem

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I'm no expert but I think trespassing on to someone's property in England is a civil matter. The problem arises if they do padlock the gate and you have to damage either the lock or the gate itself to gain entry which would be criminal damage and is illegal.

I think I would turn up unannounced with a few friends, park the lorry/trailer up the road and quietly go about collecting your horse and his stuff. I wouldn't bother getting in to any arguments with the LO, just simply state he's your horse and the livery bill is the responsibility of the loanee, not yourself.

Best of luck
 

Goldenstar

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Good luck OP .
Just think though do the liverys owners know you ?
Do you think it reasonable that if they don't know you they will handover a cilents horse to a stranger saying they are the owner .
If I owned the yard I would not allow you to remove the horse unless my cilent was present.
 

Exploding Chestnuts

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This business of passport worries me, when my horse was "sold" & not fully paid for, I kept the passport and was thus able to persuade the local police that he was my property, they were willing to send someone out, but at the relevant time did not have someone available, however I felt more secure having told them what was happening so that if I had to call them out [again!] they would know what was going on.
The reason to call them out ......... to prevent a breach of the peace, nothing to do with ownership wrangles which is a civil matter.
If I had let the girl have the passport I am pretty certain I would not have got it back. It was bad enough getting the horse back, with the gate being heavily padlocked as soon as I turned up wanting to take him out of the field.
You don't need a passport to record injections, they can be entered later. I never stuck to the 12 months business as he did not compete, I used the manufacturers recommendations.
I think it would be reasonable to ensure the YO is there at the time, and make it clear you intend to remove the horse.
 
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Bennions Field

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I hope all goes well for you, just wanted to say though, the passport is for identification purposes only it is NOT proof of ownership, unless it has a page to identify this, so if you have another form of proof of ownership/loan contract i would take this along as well. At least you can take him back, and he can be looked after properly again, thankfully she let you know before things went out of control
 

Exploding Chestnuts

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you see. the passport is not legal ownership, but to be honest, it is something of value in cases like this, as anyone can show a receipt............ which may normally have something like 15.00 Bay Gelding!
 

Goldenstar

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you see. the passport is not legal ownership, but to be honest, it is something of value in cases like this, as anyone can show a receipt............ which may normally have something like 15.00 Bay Gelding!

A reciept and the loan agreement are something but unless I knew the position as a livery owner I doult I allow OP to remove the horse .
 

Goldenstar

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Then you would be breaking the law

How is the livery owner to know a person is the horses owner .
If someone turned up at a yard where you are keeping your horse saying your horse belonged to them and took it away would you really be happy if the livery owner said ok and let them take it.
It I was the livery owner and I did not know the position I would ask the owner to leave my premises I immediatly phone the owner and the police .
 

blitznbobs

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I understand the predicament but the horse is not yours and it is (. In fact) the person's who is collecting it. It is therefore a crime to deprive that person of their property. On our yard we get round this possible issue by keeping a photocopy of their passports . This has the owners name and address on it so we know who the horse belongs to.

If I was in doubt I'd call the police and let them sort it out.
 

Toby_Zaphod

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Logically the owed money for livery is the respponsibility of the loaner & as the horse doesn't belong to them then the livery yard should not be entitled to keep hold of the horse in lieu of payment...... Logically.

The law however isn't logical. I can give you a similar scenario. A person takes their car to a garage for repairs, the garage carries out the repairs & the car owner comes in & says I'm sorry I can't afford to pay you. The garage says that they'll keep the car until the bill is paid. The owner of the car returns to the garage when it's closed with a spare set of keys & removes his vehicle. The police are called by the garage. The police see the car owner, arrest him for theft of his own vehicle. The owner goes to court & he is found guilty of theft. He appeals the case saying how can he be guilty of stealing his own property? The Queens Bench Division state that the garage owner at the time of the theft was the 'Bailee' (temporary Owner) of the car & therefore the theft conviction stands.

There are similarities between that case & this so before you try & remove the horse from the yard seek legal advice from someone who knows how the law relates to tghese circumstances. Good Luck

Oh, the name on the passport does not prove ownership of the horse. Also name on a car registration document only proves the keper of the vehicle not the owner.
 

WelshD

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Honestly.. All this talk about police and proving ownership may be jumping the gun

The loaner may well be trying to bluff the OP in to paying. Equally they may have told the YO that the OP will pay to clear the debt

I would personally be picking up the phone to the YO and having a good old fashioned discussion, it could be that there will not be a problem

If its clear that there will be a problem then thats the time for a more robust approach
 
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Goldenstar

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Logically the owed money for livery is the respponsibility of the loaner & as the horse doesn't belong to them then the livery yard should not be entitled to keep hold of the horse in lieu of payment...... Logically.

The law however isn't logical. I can give you a similar scenario. A person takes their car to a garage for repairs, the garage carries out the repairs & the car owner comes in & says I'm sorry I can't afford to pay you. The garage says that they'll keep the car until the bill is paid. The owner of the car returns to the garage when it's closed with a spare set of keys & removes his vehicle. The police are called by the garage. The police see the car owner, arrest him for theft of his own vehicle. The owner goes to court & he is found guilty of theft. He appeals the case saying how can he be guilty of stealing his own property? The Queens Bench Division state that the garage owner at the time of the theft was the 'Bailee' (temporary Owner) of the car & therefore the theft conviction stands.

There are similarities between that case & this so before you try & remove the horse from the yard seek legal advice from someone who knows how the law relates to tghese circumstances. Good Luck

Oh, the name on the passport does not prove ownership of the horse. Also name on a car registration document only proves the keper of the vehicle not the owner.

That's because the ownership of the new parts in the car has not passed to the owner they still belong to the garage .
 

Queenbee

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I'm no expert but I think trespassing on to someone's property in England is a civil matter. The problem arises if they do padlock the gate and you have to damage either the lock or the gate itself to gain entry which would be criminal damage and is illegal.

I think I would turn up unannounced with a few friends, park the lorry/trailer up the road and quietly go about collecting your horse and his stuff. I wouldn't bother getting in to any arguments with the LO, just simply state he's your horse and the livery bill is the responsibility of the loanee, not yourself.

Best of luck


Charem... Trespass and theft are both illegal, horse theft is not a civil matter.
 

Queenbee

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A reciept and the loan agreement are something but unless I knew the position as a livery owner I doult I allow OP to remove the horse .


Whilst that's a responsible attitude GS, as a horse owner, there is no way in heaven or hell that someone would be able to stop me.
 

Goldenstar

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I understand the predicament but the horse is not yours and it is (. In fact) the person's who is collecting it. It is therefore a crime to deprive that person of their property. On our yard we get round this possible issue by keeping a photocopy of their passports . This has the owners name and address on it so we know who the horse belongs to.

If I was in doubt I'd call the police and let them sort it out.

The pass port does not prove ownership in law .
It could be one of the factors the law might take into account if this case went to law .
In this case we don't know if the yard owner knows the position of the horses ownership if she does the chances are she will be happy to see the back of a guest in arrears costing money every day .
If she's got any sense and knows the position she will know she has no chance of getting a lien in this situation .
In the case where a YOer did not know the position refused access to the yard to owner as is her right .
If the police where called and the YOer said I don't these people I don't know if they own this horse or not , my cilent owes me money I think these people are trying to remove this horse to prevent me getting a lien agaisnt it what do you think the police would do ?
I dont think it's at all clear they would force the YOer to allow people to come on to her property and remove the horse.
As welshD says it would be good if the owner just could speak to the YOer and explain what's going to happens and what the position is but there's a risk in that if the YO is not a straight honest person the horse could disappear before the owner gets there then it's a complete mess .
Let's hope Op gets there the YOer is a nice sensible person and the horse gets home in one piece .
I was thinking those of you who have horses on loan do you get the loanee to sign a set of good conformation shots with a declaration on them because I think I would do that .
 
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