Loaning turned my horse into the devil-bit long

gill84

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Loaned my mare to our local college after Xmas. She's had others ride her, compete her, my brothers girlfriend works with children with disabilities and they used to come and mess on with her and she never batted an eyelid.
Dropped her off on the Friday and went to see her the following weekend. All was ok except they had changed her bit from her Dutch gag to snaffle, fine except whichever idiot did it didn't drop the cheek pieces!!! I questioned this but just got told must have been a student to which I asked why weren't they supervised and why hadn't anyone else noticed her discomfort.
Went the next weekend and she was a different horse. Couldn't get a head collar on let alone bridle. Questioned the yard manager whose response was she's been like this all week. Horrified I asked why nobody phoned me and was told they thought she was just grouchy! At this point she was spinning round, grunting and trying to kick me.
Following weekend went up to find a notice on her door stating do not remove head collar. Asked why and was told coz they couldn't catch her in a stable. She would kick, bite and spin round. I've had her 10 years and she even did all this with me.
Following day I got the vet up to sedate her and do her teeth. 45 muns in we still hadn't got her sedated coz the vet couldn't get near, she had bitten me several times, reared up, kicked the walls (wooden thankfully) and in the end I had to sedate her with the vet telling me what to do out of my horses sight.
Got her teeth done and vet confirmed that her issues stemmed from the snaffle sitting too high in her mouth and banging on her teeth! The yard manager denied all responsability and demanded I took her home coz she was dangerous.
4 weeks on and I've ridden her once mostly due to time but wanted to give her time to calm down. Put her head collar on over the gate the other day and she was fine. Went to put it on again in her stable and the same behaviour all over again!!
She's fine to ride just turns savage when she sees a head collar and just about climbs the walls when you show her a bridle! Wits end!! What do I do? But sceptical but a friend of mine had a I don't know what you would call it but a horse physcologist come to hers after it kept behaving oddly and they got to the bottom of the problem.
Just so mad at the problem the college caused then washed their hands of. She was fine before never had any issues in the 10 years I've had her but now getting a bridle on is just a nightmare, for both of us. Was suggested I go back to ground work, rebuilding her trust. That's all well and good but gotta get a head collar and/or bridle on to do it. Ignore the behaviour and hope she comes round? I've spoken to the vet again and she says there was no other physical reason for her to behave this way coz she checked everything whilst she was sedated. What the heck do I do??
 

zaminda

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I would leave the headcollar on, and use something like a libby's bridle, which you clip the bit on without having to pull it over the head. I would also be contacting the college in writing, and expressing your displeasure, and telling them you would be letting people know what happened to your horse in their 'care'.
 

Theresa_F

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As above but I would also see if I could get some professional help to overcome her problems. I have used a natural horsemanship - Kelly Marks person in the past and found it both very interesting and educational to see the way they work with the horse. I didn't have major issues but was interested to see what they did and add to my knowledge. The minor issue was very quickly resolved by her.

Such a shame for both of you that this has happened.
 

nixxyz

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It seems like its remembered pain associated with the bit? if i were you id try just putting her bridle on without the bit, reward her then take it off. Once she accepts that then try her bit again but make it nice, put some treacle or such on it so its not a bad experience. Failing all that id try her in a bitless bridle and just give her time.
 

Mince Pie

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As above but I would also see if I could get some professional help to overcome her problems. I have used a natural horsemanship - Kelly Marks person in the past and found it both very interesting and educational to see the way they work with the horse. I didn't have major issues but was interested to see what they did and add to my knowledge. The minor issue was very quickly resolved by her.

Such a shame for both of you that this has happened.
This, and then I would bill the college.
 

Vixen Van Debz

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This sounds like basic pain conditioning: anyone going near her in the stable to 'catch' her has become associated with the pain of the bridle. Her behaviour's therefore understandable and justified!

She just needs to learn that the bridle is no longer a negative. That might start simply by nice things happening with the bridle hung up: for example, grooming and feeding occur when the bridle's around. Trying to place it on without the bit is a great suggestion, or the libby bridle. The cycle of grabbing her head means avoidant behaviouyr due to pain just needs to be broken.

I agree with sending the invoice to the college, preferably along with a letter from the vet stating the cause of her pain.
 

Beausmate

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What a bunch of muppets!! Stern letter to the Principal and yard manager I think. As for your poor horse, I'd be tempted to leave the bridle out of it for now and just work on getting her happy with the headcollar. Do you put your headcollar on by doing up the top strap over the head or do you put it on done up with the throat strap undone, so it's more bridle-like? Maybe start with the top undone, then when she's happy with that try it done up, then when that's going well try a bitless bridle maybe? Treat her like she's never even had anything over her ears before. Poor sod's scared!! I'd be furious.:mad:
 

gill84

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All her issues are in the stable. I can catch her no problem in the field but trying to catch her in a stable is a trauma. I've tried putting a bridle on outside and she just tosses her head about. I was asked to go and watch her behaviour on the morning before the vet came. It was like watching a comedy!!
Student puts her head collar on fine. Tries her bridle and fails so gets her friend to try who also failed. They got a lecturer to try who failed and got teeth flown in her direction so genius idea, they would fetch her out and tie her up. Put the head collar round her neck, put the reins over her neck, show her the bridle throws get head up, pulled back, snapped the string she was tied to. Ha ha next move, go for a bucket of nuts, she throws her head up and they feed her to get her down, try again, same happens!!
Now all the while I'm watching this thinking what the hell are these people trying to teach?? Surely all they were doing was rewarding her for misbehaving and throwing her head up?
I'm just livid that they caused her problems and I've been left to resolve them. I'd love to get a horse "whisperer" in to see if they can help, then at least id have a starting point but it's the expense and I know fine well the college wouldn't cough up towards costs.
Since she came home I've just messed on grooming and trying to rebuild trust but come to the conclusion it's not a trust issue coz nothing else is a problem, her attitude towards everything else hasn't changed it's just her bridle and head collar if she's stabled. I asked the vet that surely if the bit isn't causing her pain now why is she still bridleshy and so aggressive? She assured me there's no physical reason and she's just got it in her head that the bridle means pain. God I could kill the person who changed her bit at the college but funnily enough nobody would admit to doing it!!!
 

Meowy Catkin

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This, and then I would bill the college.

Too bleddy right! :mad:

There have been so many posts about colleges not looking after horses that are loaned to them properly. It makes me wonder why anyone is still willing to loan to one. :confused:

ETA. How about riding her in a bitless bridle for a few weeks to give her a break from having a bit in her mouth?
 
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PandorasJar

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All her issues are in the stable. I can catch her no problem in the field but trying to catch her in a stable is a trauma. I've tried putting a bridle on outside and she just tosses her head about. I was asked to go and watch her behaviour on the morning before the vet came. It was like watching a comedy!!
Student puts her head collar on fine. Tries her bridle and fails so gets her friend to try who also failed. They got a lecturer to try who failed and got teeth flown in her direction so genius idea, they would fetch her out and tie her up. Put the head collar round her neck, put the reins over her neck, show her the bridle throws get head up, pulled back, snapped the string she was tied to. Ha ha next move, go for a bucket of nuts, she throws her head up and they feed her to get her down, try again, same happens!!
Now all the while I'm watching this thinking what the hell are these people trying to teach?? Surely all they were doing was rewarding her for misbehaving and throwing her head up?
I'm just livid that they caused her problems and I've been left to resolve them. I'd love to get a horse "whisperer" in to see if they can help, then at least id have a starting point but it's the expense and I know fine well the college wouldn't cough up towards costs.
Since she came home I've just messed on grooming and trying to rebuild trust but come to the conclusion it's not a trust issue coz nothing else is a problem, her attitude towards everything else hasn't changed it's just her bridle and head collar if she's stabled. I asked the vet that surely if the bit isn't causing her pain now why is she still bridleshy and so aggressive? She assured me there's no physical reason and she's just got it in her head that the bridle means pain. God I could kill the person who changed her bit at the college but funnily enough nobody would admit to doing it!!!

Sounds like more than her pushing her weight round with them if it's only confined to a stable... makes you wonder how they tried it before you were watching :/

I would personally work on popping your old bit back in and then letting her have a little munch and then pop out and play with it til she realises that it's not going to hurt her again. Has she got any damage that may still be sore from the previous bit that's a reaon she's avoiding? I know the vet says not and you don't think it's the issue but I'm not talking major damage but maybe a little nick that's been missed?

Have to say if I were her then I'd be avoiding it too if I knew the pain it had caused. :(

Get a statement from the vet saying it was the bit and look through any contract made with the college. Was she meant to be ridden in tack supplied, were you meant to be notified of any change, are they responsible for damage caused by unsupervised students etc etc

Pan
 

sprytzer

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I wonder if someone has lost their temper with her and used the bridle to give her a hiding when they could'nt get the bridle on, just a thought.
 

be positive

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If she has been pulling back have you checked her poll, I have had a couple that were very sore and found getting the bridle on difficult, with physio and time it was resolved and then they were easier to bridle.
The other thing to try is using a softer bit something rubber that will not bang on her teeth even if you accidentally catch her as you put it on or take it off, the chances are it has been pulled off roughly as well.

No idea what these colleges are doing they seem to all be able to make a mess of even the most simple things, no wonder people are saying that many graduates are unemployable, if the managers are not getting things right what chance for the students, it is a shame when it is the horses that suffer the consequences.
 

gill84

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I did question how the horses were managed coz the 4 weeks she was there she was turned out for 30 mins! Words were when I asked if she was ok turned out with another horse were " yeah she had a roll, they followed each about, munched some grass then got silly and were galloping about so brought then in incase the pulled a show off"!
They were worked then put back in their stables til the next day from what I saw so maybe it's the association of oh god someone's coming in my stable and that means I've gotta do 100 laps of the arena then be shoved back in my stable that also added to the problem. I do also think they didn't help matters by being scared of her temper. I had to fill in a form about her temperament before they took her and I clearly stated she could be moody and if she knows she's got the better of someone she will run rings round them and that she needed a firm hand so that she didn't become dominant over people. Clearly they didn't listen.
They used the excuse she was dangerous to which I asked well surely if these kids are wanting a career in the horse world then they need to lean how to deal with a less than perfect mannered horse? They are going to come across far worse than mine who in my opinion WAS a saint! Like I say she regularly had disabled kids groom her and pat her (not at the min obviously) so she's by no means the savage beast they made her out to be I'm just livid and a bit upset that they made her this way in the 4 weeks they had her.
Think as people are suggesting I need to groom her with the bridle present, over my shoulder maybe, but it on without the bit, or but her bridle on and just let her wander about with it on whilst I muck out or something. Anything to get this pain assosiation out of her messed up head!
 

EmmasMummy

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I agree that the college needs to foot the bill.

My boy went away on working livery for a few months, I thought he would like it. HOW WRONG WAS I! Due to the weather they ended up stuck in a barn for 4 months..........a barn smaller than my current office.........and there were about 10 equines in there - him being one of the larger ones. He had to stay there till I had the ability to move him.

He started head-shaking when ridden, to the point he was unridable, and they couldn't use him, so I took him back.

The headshaking stopped immediately, but he is funny in indoor schools now, and he want back to the yard a few times for SJ and he would start to get twitchy and headshake when he was there.

I definately think it was the environment in which he was kept.
 

cyberhorse

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I think you are planing going about it in the right way - reconditioning her response to the bridle in a positive way, have it hanging around a lot. Just another thought - could you strip the bridle down take the cheek pieces off and the bit and put it on (a bit looser as you would with a headcollar so she can eat fine) doing this at tea time before she gets fed? The bridle can then be associated with nice things happening. Most of the conditioning we do for various fears involves feeding in association with the problem issues, e.g having tea on a trailer for nervous travelers.

I would be completely fuming if I had not been called in at and early stage if a college had found problems with a horse I loaned them. If things do not settle down then I think you should get professional help in and request strongly that they pay the fees.
 

Wagtail

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I expect that her poll is still incredibly painful. I would give her a fortnight off, then start her on bute or danilon and after two days start again with the head collar and then the bridle.
 

starryeyed

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Poor lady, you must be furious! Definitely, definitely get a letter from your vet & write a stern letter to whoever's in charge, and get them to pay for the vets bill. Perhaps get someone to check her poll area as well, is it sensitive to the touch?
What I was going to suggest has already been said (start with having the bridle hanging around / put it on minus the bit / when you re-introduce bit slather it in something yummy etc) so won't repeat, but I hope she's back to her normal self again soon, bet she's happier already now she has actual turnout! Horse communicator-wise, if you want to go down that route then jackie weaver is amazing, though i think you're pretty spot on with what's causing her upset in that she's associated the bridle with pain and the stable with the fact that she'll be ridden and therefore hurt. Poor girlie, good luck x
 
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littlemisslauren

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OP - It sounds like your mare has had a really crappy time :( I have no advice to offer other than what has already been said.

I work on a college yard and I have to say that we treat any horse on the yard like they are our own. Not all colleges lock horses up 24 /7 and send them in endless circles in the arena.
 

gill84

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Dont think it's pain in her poll coz she'll let me touch it and rub it, after I've got her head collar on of course but if this carries on i'll have no choice but to put her through the stress of another vet visit. She hates the vet at the best of times so I'm reluctant to upset her further. She's been home and left alone now for 4 weeks and she's no different to the day I brought her back. I can go in her stable and move her about, change rugs, groom, feed and put a saddle on with no hassle what do ever it's just as soon as I want control of her head she turns on me...or anyone else who tries
 

gill84

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Littlemisslauren- I'm glad you don't operate in the same way. I went up one day and schooled her, took her for a short walk round the campus, turned her loose in the arena to roll then led her out to graze. In this time 6 had been loose schooled!!! Then they went back in stables
 

Meowy Catkin

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I really am beginning to think that someone has been quite violent towards her while she was in the stable. Possibly, shanked her several times while she was wearing her bridle?

Unless someone lets you know exactly what happened (very doubtful) you can only go by reading her behaviour.

I really hope that with kind handling from someone that she knows - that she's soon recovered and back to her old self.
 

gill84

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Believe me faracat the thought had crossed my mind. If I was proved right rest assured the culprit would have no limbs left by the time id finished. They did say she had pinned a student in the corner of the stable one day whilst mucking out. Maybe they welted her one I just don't know and probably never will
 

Meowy Catkin

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It's just that for a horse (that you have known for 10 years) to go from being able to be groomed by disabled children to pinning someone in the stable in a matter of days... well something bad happened during those few days.
 

mulledwhine

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Sounds exactly how I got my boy back :(

I got Gary bosworth out to me who works under Kelly marks.

It was not expensive, I think about £50 but that was about 5 years ago.

I turned him away, and only fed and spent time before doing anything, even putting a rug on, which was gods own job when I got him back.

It took time, nearly a year until he was back to normal, and infact even better than he had been with me.

Gary only came once, worked with him, suggested that it was a trust issue , and left a work sheet and his number to call if I ever needed him.

Good luck, your horse WILL come around, but it will take time.

Good luck
 

Luci07

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All,good advice...just something else you can quickly check yourself. Look at your mare head on and check that the eye sockets are limed up together. A poll issue could often mean that the eye sockets are out of line. I really would get her poll checked though to be sure she has no damage there

Maybe try really padding up the head collar (Jeffries do some) and put it on and off with some treats. however I did have a horse who became a major pain with his bridle. Now in his case it turned out to be an ear infection but because he had had pain there he was always tricky to put a bridle omafter that.
 

Goldenstar

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I would echo the previous comments to get her poll checked a sore poll can cause all sorts of strange behaviour .
 
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