Long Toe - Lameness

[Dregish1950]

Hi all,

My horse went lame 12 weeks ago.

Go back 3 weeks…
Sacked my farrier and changed to a new one who shod him on 23rd December, wasn’t as lame in walk and came almost sound on the 2nd January vet told me to hack him. 2.5 miles in walk got back, trotted him up and he’s lame again. Nerve blocked and injected some steroid and he was much more comfortable ever so slightly off in trot up.

Yesterday had another vet asses who suggested ultrasound the navicular. DDTF fine, some fluid around both but nothing of concern and happy considering his is 18.

We believe it’s because he’s been too long in the toe which has resulted in bruising and pain. No bruising in the sound foot just the lame across the toe along with stretch white line so all makes sense. I must add when he went lame he had good balance issues along with sheared heels.

The vet advises this can be managed by good shoeing. He’s happy with what my new farrier has done with the rolled toe shoes and taking the toe back.




I Appreciate it’s going to take time and all are different but I have no idea what kind of exercise programme or even programme I should be working to.

He is comfortable on the soft just not the hard, anyone had any experience of this?

Thanks

 

[Glitter's fun]

Do you think it would be better to update the original thread?
I think maybe having two separate threads running side by side is going to get confusing.

 

[Dregish1950]

Not really as the only relevance is the sheared heels and hoof balance.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Get a remedial farrier to shoe him and cut the toe right back although that looks one very unhealthy hoof.

Wall and white line look crumbly
Frog looks narrow
No concavity to the sole so he is going to feel everything so he will be sore and bruised.

As I have said on your other thread I would get him in boots and do a barefoot rehab, keep putting shoes on those hooves and they will just get worse.

 

[Dregish1950]

Get a remedial farrier to shoe him and cut the toe right back although that looks one very unhealthy hoof.

Wall and white line look crumbly
Frog looks narrow
No concavity to the sole so he is going to feel everything so he will be sore and bruised.

As I have said on your other thread I would get him in boots and do a barefoot rehab, keep putting shoes on those hooves and they will just get worse.

He is not going barefoot.
As mentioned I have a very good farrier who has already made a difference. Appreciate it won’t resolve over night and maybe several cycles.

The question is the rehab of work how do to manage it. Leave him rest, work him on the soft little and often etc.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

He is not going barefoot.
As mentioned I have a very good farrier who has already made a difference. Appreciate it won’t resolve over night and maybe several cycles.

The question is the rehab of work how do to manage it. Leave him rest, work him on the soft little and often etc.

I really wouldn't be doing anything with him especially if his sore on hard ground let him have a few weeks rest in the field.

It's certainly not a quick fix so it's rest and wait.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I think possibly 2.5 miles was a bit much if he had been lame and not done anything at all. Id leave him for a bit wait till better weather and see how he copes then. I think it will just take time

 

[paddy555]

Not really as the only relevance is the sheared heels and hoof balance.

I thought on your other thread that he had a bruised sole?

the diagnosis keeps changing. I'm not really sure what is wrong with him, feet or further up.

as for what rehab work then ask your vet. He is the only one who has seen the horse and can advise.

I don't think you can do anything from what you describe is he is not comfortable on the hard. Leave him and hope he comes sound

whilst he is resting I would encourage you to read.

can I ask how you KNOW your new farrier is good? how are you judging his work? he may well be good but what are you basing that on.

 

[Reacher]

The trouble is with shoes on it’s difficult to trim frequently enough to bring the toe back. Read up Prof Robert Bowker - he has lots of videos but there is an article here (you can sign up for free to read it).

Hoof Trimming to Improve Structure and Function

Bowker: Long toes and underrun heels set horses up for failure. Here are recommendations for an improved trim to help correct this condition.

thehorse.com

“You’re trimming the foot to change the inside of the horse,” said Bowker. “I’ve been saying this for 20 years and it’s been falling on deaf ears. … With a long toe and underrun heels, you have to trim every three to four days until you get the toe and heels back under the horse. Then trim periods can be longer but not six to eight weeks, as that is why the foot got to becoming long.”

PS I know you disagree about removing shoes, but if he were mine I’d keep him on a surface where he was comfortable and take his shoes off, at least until the feet have improved significantly

 

[ycbm]

He is not going barefoot.

Well at least you're making things clear here.

Come back to us if he is, as many horses are, still lame after the vets and remedial farriers have run out of things to try. Even at that late stage we can still hold your hand through the barefoot rehab which has the best chance of bringing him long term sound.
.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Well at least you're making things clear here.

Come back to us if he is, as many horses are, still lame after the vets and remedial farriers have run out of things to try. Even at that late stage we can still hold your hand through the barefoot rehab which has the best chance of bringing him long term sound.
.

Exactly but even after asking for advice with 2 threads the message is not getting through.

 

[paddy555]

Exactly but even after asking for advice with 2 threads the message is not getting through.

I'm afraid "head" and "brick wall" come to mind very sadly.

Unfortunately you cannot help all of the horses.

 

[ester]

If he’s not comfortable I wouldn’t be working him.
Blocked to? Injected?

Similar trajectory to mine age 19, 12 weeks later hooves looked great externally still lame after hacking, presumed still not great shoes came off, 6 month slow rehab and he died sound on them at 29, hunted/competed until he retired for other bits at 26ish.

 

[AmyMay]

If he’s lame don’t work him. Simples.

 

[Zoeypxo]

if i recall from the last thread your horse has coffin joint arthritis? Has this been ruled out as a potential for the lameness? Recent x rays?

I was a sceptic of barefoot and thought it would never work but it ended up being the only thing that did work for my horse with lameness in the foot . I tried steroid, arthramid twice and all the remedial shoes you can imagine.
Now been barefoot just over a year, had repeat hoof x rays today and now correct hoof balance , was very negative angled before.

 

[millitiger]

I haven't read the other thread.

Has he been x-rayed?
MRI to check for soft tissue damage?

With a lame/sore horse, I would want above diagnostics and I wouldn't be riding him.

 

[Tiddlypom]

There’s a long back story to this horse’s lameness history on the OP’s previous thread. There is much more going on than just long toes.

Thrush, Sheared heels, hoof imbalance - Lameness

17th October my horse went lame in front right, farrier came and advised he has sheered heels and thrush. Shod him with some avanti rail shoes to help with the inbalance that has occurred in his front left hoof. 3 weeks later he came sound treated his feet daily and packing the frogs with red...

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

He has previously had his coffin joints infected I suspect 3-5 years ago. He’s been with me for 1.5 years… his owners suggest treating these before X-rays.

Has this horse had his front feet x rayed since you have had him?

 

[nutjob]

I thought on your other thread that he had a bruised sole?

The top left in the image looks like it could be bruising to me, but it could be just the colour on my screen. When my horse had this it was caused by a toe first landing indicative of much more sinister problems.
OP I would definitely be going barefoot here but if you are adamant not to then I would at least take the opportunity while shoes are off for shoeing to see how the feet are landing.

 

[Dregish1950]

Thank you - shoes are now on and 3 weeks since and I would say 1/10th lame. He’s improving but imagine it’ll take a few cycles. He did have toe bruising but also had nail bind. New farrier has put him in rolled toe and taken toe back. Lesson the break over.
Pretty sound trot up, not 100% turning in a circle.
I must add he is also landing flatter now too, not toe landing.

 

[millitiger]

If he is still 1/10 lame, then he is lame and does not need a rehab/fitness plan at the moment.

Until he is 0/10 lame, on hard and soft surfaces, you don't need an exercise programme.

 

[Dregish1950]

So basically I leave an old horse standing in a stable and a field in the cold and not get him moving? He’s sound on the soft so absolutely no reason why he can’t do walking exercise so yes a rehab plan is needed. Vet suggested on the soft until sound on the hard.
Might just add be sound in trot up in the hard. Not 190% on hard turning.
he’s come sound in the past on hard but the smallest bit of walking on the hard goes lame again….

 

[webble]

No you rug him appropriately to keep him warm, boot him as required and work with a good farrier who is happy to work on barefoot rehab and suitable diet. Given the history you probably need to look at more than just the feet though

 

[Dregish1950]

Urghhh he is not going barefoot
I also have a good farrier
The vet doesn’t believe there is an underlying issue.
It could simply just be that the old farrier took his eye off the ball, didn’t trim properly which resulted in imbalance, then impacted the heels causing them to shear, he was too long in the toe and they changed him into shoes that made him lamer along with nailbind.

So I’ve had 2 vets assess, I’ve also changed my farrier. I think we’re on the right track. But thanks.

 

[AmyMay]

So basically I leave an old horse standing in a stable and a field in the cold and not get him moving? He’s sound on the soft so absolutely no reason why he can’t do walking exercise so yes a rehab plan is needed. Vet suggested on the soft until sound on the hard.
Might just add be sound in trot up in the hard. Not 190% on hard turning.
he’s come sound in the past on hard but the smallest bit of walking on the hard goes lame again….

As said, you rug him appropriately and turn him out to recover. I’m not sure if you’ve had the coffin joint re-medicated, but that’s obviously a consideration to be made (and would have been the first thing I would have investigated). It sounds as if he’s going to need some very careful re-hab and management going forward. But first he needs to be allowed to recover once you’ve firmly established what is actually wrong.

I also wouldn’t take him barefoot.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I’ll show you what I’ve done with mine because the horse sounds similar. Up to you what you decide to do, of course.

I have a mare who came to me in June 2022, with very long toes, intermittently lame with suspected DDFT or navicular. She started hacking again in August, and she will hopefully come back into work this year. She may be shod in front at this point, she may stay barefoot. We will wait and see how it goes.

First thing we did was X-rays, which were clear, and then shoes off and into boots with pads.








Socks to start off for chafing but we didn’t use them long.



8 months later (I have this photo purely because of the abscess track I was photographing). She was sound in straight lines and intermittently lame on a circle.



A year on



And I should update now - they look even nicer now. I’ll take a photo next time we have the farrier.

 

[Widgeon]

I’ll show you what I’ve done with mine because the horse sounds similar.

I remember reading your original thread LG but I don't think I'd appreciated quite how horrible her feet were - she had no heels at all, did she? Her feet (in the initial photos) look bizarre. I'd love to see a recent update.

 

[ycbm]

So basically I leave an old horse standing in a stable and a field in the cold and not get him moving?

I don't understand how exercising him for, what, an hour a day is going to stop him standing cold in the stable and field for the other 23 hours. That would seem to be a rugging issue, not an exercise issue.
.

 

[ycbm]

If he is still 1/10 lame, then he is lame and does not need a rehab/fitness plan at the moment.

Until he is 0/10 lame, on hard and soft surfaces, you don't need an exercise programme.

I think she does need a rehab plan. These soft tissue foot lameness issues sometimes don't resolve until the horse is got moving. But that usually means starting with 10 minutes in hand and working up slowly from there.

The worrying thing about this horse is that there doesn't seem to be a clear diagnosis supported by nerve blocks and x rays.
.

 

[millitiger]

So basically I leave an old horse standing in a stable and a field in the cold and not get him moving? He’s sound on the soft so absolutely no reason why he can’t do walking exercise so yes a rehab plan is needed. Vet suggested on the soft until sound on the hard.
Might just add be sound in trot up in the hard. Not 190% on hard turning.
he’s come sound in the past on hard but the smallest bit of walking on the hard goes lame again….

No, you get x-rays done to check angles.
MRI to check if there is soft tissue damage.
Pain relief if needed

Once you have a true diagnosis you will know whether he needs box rest, field rest or a rehab plan- but without a diagnosis you can't choose which route is correct unfortunately.

 

[millitiger]

I think she does need a rehab plan. These soft tissue foot lameness issues sometimes don't resolve until the horse is got moving. But that usually means starting with 10 minutes in hand and working up slowly from there.

The worrying thing about this horse is that there doesn't seem to be a clear diagnosis supported by nerve blocks and x rays.
.

As far as I can see, he doesn't have a diagnosis of any sort or confirmation of what soft tissue is there so I don't see how he can need a rehab plan- yet.