Long toe low heel but perfectly sound youngster

Nudibranch

Nudibranch

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Ok I'll try and keep it as concise as I can.

I have a 17.3, just turned 5yo drum x TB gelding. Had him since a foal. Perfectly normal until about 18 months when he started wearing his hind toes a little. Farrier put it down to tweaking something in the field and vet wasn't concerned either. Had a quick workup done aged 2 as I was concerned he was very, very clumsy and a possible wobbler. Nothing found.

At 3 we had x rays and blocks to the hinds as I was concerned he was still clumsy, sometimes appeared a little stiff behind and was still wearing the hinds a bit. Vet agreed he was slightly - below 1/10 - lame. X rays found nothing but blocks to the hocks suggested possibly the issue was there. It was a bit inconclusive tbh. He was given one round of Depomax and has been visibly sound ever since, but when doing roadwork still wears the hind toes slightly. Vet put that down to being just backed and lazy...

Anyway since about 18 months old, his fronts have developed a fairly flat profile, what I would describe as trying to go long toe low heel. The hoof angle is noticeably shallower than the pastern angle. He's trimmed every 8 weeks, and I am now on the 3rd farrier who is very experienced. One previous was a UKNHCP trimmer and he was happy, if bemused. Current farrier is also happy with things as horse is totally sound, even over stones, although if I didn't know better and just looked as a 3rd party I'd say he was a laminitis candidate! He is turned away atm, as I am heavily pregnant, but when he comes back into work I will see how he goes and think about maybe x rays for the fronts. Question is, if he is totally sound is there any point? I have always believed the theory that they grow the feet they need and if there is unusual growth they are compensating for something. But what and where? Could it be the hinds making the fronts do this? Or do we have a future foreleg issue brewing? Has anyone else dealt with unusual shaped feet but never had an issue?

He's never been shod, has lovely digital cushions, big meaty frogs and quality hard hoof. Soles are a little flat but he rock crunches happily. Diet is old, unfertilised mixed pasture on the edge of the fell which is only fit for sheep, with a huge range of vegetation so I can't think it's a grass issue. He gets Pro Hoof in a tiny scoop of nuts. He doesn't carry excess weight. I would love to post photos but with an 8 month bump I just can't get low enough....
 
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Nudibranch said:
Yes, but he doesn't show any stiffness at the moment. When he did, it was almost imperceptible. It's quite bizarre.
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Are you sure? He sounds very like my first one, and my second was unsound behind and intermittent but only someone very experienced could see it. Yours has the genes for it from the drum horse.

Try wobbling a few bottoms on other horses and see how jelly like you can make them by patting with the flat of your hand. Then try it on yours. If his bottom is harder feeling, that probably isn't good muscle tone, which was what I thought, it's muscle myopathy.

The treatment is easy, a high dose of vitamin E and 10g a day of alcar, with a low carb diet.
 
There was no pattern, it was on and off from about 18 months to 3 yo. Couldn't pin it down to anything. It seemed to be just behind, so the first xrays were to the stifle, though we havent yet done anything with the SI or back.
 
Incidentally, one of mine is also long toe low heel and rock crunching. I worry about him a lot but there's nothing I can do about it. Does your horse land flat/heel first? If so, I would ignore it.
 
Yes, except going uphill when he sometimes uses a slightly silly toe first landing ( which is what made me query wobblers or something in the first place).
 
Nudibranch said:
Interesting ycbm...I'll go out and wobble a few bums then :)
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Its quite good fun :D

Seriously though, I was so proud of the second one's 'muscle tone' until it started feeling rock hard and I realised I had TWO with EPSM.

I tried removing the vitamin E recently, because it costs a bit and I hoped the alcar would be enough on its own. No way, three days later, solid bum. It only took one careful workout to get rid of it again, but it won't be a mistake I make twice!
 
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The livery here that is now being treated as a PSSM horse was showing only subtle signs, she never tied up or really looked stiff just failing to work as she should and had tight muscles, I have only just realised that she also wore her hind toes slightly which since she started treatment has stopped she has improved so much since starting on alcar and vit e it is incredible.

I will now look at any horse that is not performing or is "difficult" to see if this could be the reason, I suspect that over the years I have had a few with this condition and feel rather sad that it was an unknown condition and to many it still is.
 
Nudibranch said:
Yes, except going uphill when he sometimes uses a slightly silly toe first landing ( which is what made me query wobblers or something in the first place).
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I tested my dyspraxic one, who is also the long toe/low heel, for wobblers as well. I've had a wobbler and he seemed so similar. Then he got false colic (looked like colic, wasn't) and I realised he was EPSM. Treatment has changed him a lot.
 
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I will now look at any horse that is not performing or is "difficult" to see if this could be the reason, I suspect that over the years I have had a few with this condition and feel rather sad that it was an unknown condition and to many it still is.
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This. I think it's massively undiagnosed. I'm sure that one I had, who I always called lazy, had it, and there may have been others.

The rate for a horse with heavy horse genes on a random muscle biopsy research project was SIXTY percent!
 
Nudibranch said:
Hmm, definitely some similar traits then. Might try the vit e and alcar... they cant do any harm I guess.
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Harmless afaik, I think myprotein.com is cheapest for a kilo of alcar at the moment but FW might know better. If he's that big, I'd give him 15g a day. (What do you reckon FW?) Mine are on 6,000 iu of vitamin E but some have a lot more than that.
 
ycbm said:
This. I think it's massively undiagnosed. I'm sure that one I had, who I always called lazy, had it, and there may have been others.

The rate for a horse with heavy horse genes on a random muscle biopsy research project was SIXTY percent!
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My show cob was always lazy, apart from the odd explosion, now looking back I fed him totally inappropriately to try and create energy but probably kept the worst of the symptoms at bay due to working him so hard to keep the weight off and get him as fit as possible, he never achieved anything like his full potential and at that time it was something I had never heard of, there are others that probably had it that I labeled as difficult, nappy etc that were sound but again never worked to their potential.

60% is scary, especially now with so many cob types around there must be many undiagnosed that could be so easily treated and have their life improved.
 
Cobs are very stoic as well.

I feed between 5-7500iu vit e oil from Equimins. 1 level tbsp of alcar and 2 salt. 2kgs alfalfa pellets, 2 kgs coolstance copra, adlib hay and an unmolassed mineral block. She doesn't graze grass and is kept out 24/7. Exercised the same every day.

Vitamin e deficiency can cause the symptoms as well so its well worth trying it, it won't hurt. Don't however use selenivite and check all supplements for hidden sugars. Most are not safe, very small amounts can cause mild symptoms. My horse was still able to jump 90cm tracks and win while mildly symptomatic and I didn't realise until I took her off linseed that this was causing her to be symptomatic. Her performance now is much better yet for a 14.2 cob it was still pretty impressive before.

I'm pretty sure had not had her at livery, where she was stabled, unlike if I had brought her home, and fed her oats, she would never have tied up. I would be none the wiser and would probably think varying performance was just because I am asking a lot from a cob.

Due to the inheritance of it (only one copy needed to cause symptoms) it has to be very common. Also the symptoms are varied and hard to put your finger on as well. There is no one size fits all "treatment" and alcar may not help your horse. The main thing is an ultra low sugar and starch diet and vitamin e supplementation for a starting point.

I had an APH who I now suspect may have been a type 2.

There will also be other myopathies yet to be discovered.
 
the symptoms you describe, especially the toe dragging, mild intermittent hind limb stiffness and strange woblyness behind were exactly the symptoms one of mine showed with kissing spines. we spend ages focusing on the hocks finding the odd small issue but nothing massively relevant or that improved at all with treatment. the vets thought i was mad when i said i wanted back xrayed for symptoms he was displaying. several touching processes found (not overridding). isld op followed which made no difference so in a last ditch attempt medicated and intense physio. horse is now back out competing, no toe dragging, no lameness. may be worth xraying the back if you have exhausted other avenues. good luck
 
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