Losing control (both of me and the horse!)

redapple

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I part loan a lovely cob and have done for over a year. The background is she wasn't broken to drive until early teens and hasn't been the easiest but is generally trying to please with the odd moment of "nope, not today thrown in". So she older but green and can be quite stubborn and hot at times. I am currently, however, incredibly frustrated and could do with some ideas. Sorry for the long post!

Over the last few months we have gone from being able to pull off a reasonable prelim test to barely being able to trot around the school a few times without having some obvious issues. If you were to watch I would say the take-home feeling would be we look like we are having an argument with each other!

She pulls like a freight train! She's calm(ish) in walk but as soon as you up the speed into trot or canter she's off. She doesn't break pace (as in if I say trot she doesn't ever break into a canter) and I can still do transitions but the speed of the actual pace is *fast*. And she is very very resistant to slowing down. She feels almost blinkered, I used to be able to use light rein aids and she'd be super sensitive to the seat but now she feels like she's not thinking about anything but going as fast as her legs will take her.

Secondly I'm having a problem with my inside hand rein suddenly being dominant. Obviously not helping and I'm trying hard to give with that hand and hold her more on the outside rein and inside leg but jeez is it feeling like hard work when she's just legging it! She also isn't listening to moving off the leg, so pushing her around the bends with my outside leg is tough and frustrating. She's falling through the shoulder and she will run into the fence.

I've got an instructor and have been having lessons but honestly, i'm finding them frustrating and feel like they've made their own problem. The main thing we have been doing is trying to get her to over flex to the outside, to the extent I can see her outside eye. And just going around (and around...) with her flexed to the outside. One, this is hard work as she's running, not listening to any kind of lateral bend and it feels very odd to me to be going round crooked. Now she will actually do it without being asked which worries me but instructor says that that's what we want as it shows shes off the inside rein (which is my riding that has caused that problem) and we can now get her back to being straight. Except she's cocking her head to the side now and we cant for toffee ride a straight line.

All in all, i'm currently feeling like I've ruined a good horse! Any advice as to what you would do in this situation? Change bit? Scrap lessons? (Can't change instructor no outside instructor allowed, also she's a well-recommended instructor so maybe I'm just being oversensitive and resilient to change?!)

Feeling very deflated!
 

Antw23uk

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Sadly I am going to add to the deflation .. poor poor horse! She sounds like she is exceptionally unhappy and you have to work out why! Something has happened, this hasnt happened overnight, she sounds unhappy, uncomfortable? in pain? Bored, sour of the school? I think you just need to stop doing what you are doing and stop forcing her until you get in a professional to help you understand whats gone wrong. That may be a vet, vet/ physio combination, saddler ect ... I think you are concentrating on the wrong things .. you are concerned about what bit, flexion and cocking her head ... this horse is pretty much screaming something at you and you arent listening!
 

SpringArising

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I don't think you're concerned with the wrong things, but I think you need to go way back to basics.

If she finds it difficult, you can't expect her to go laps and laps being flexed to the outside. If she were mine I'd spend a few sessions just in walk, working over and through poles, concentrating on flexion each way but only for a few steps each way at a time.

She sounds anxious and a bit confused. What bit is she in?
 

redapple

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I'd completely agree. I'm not deflated because she's not going 'well' or 'as asked' I'm deflated because something is clearly not right and that's upsetting as someone partially caring for her. I'm concerned with what bit to use as I think that could be part of the problem and worried about the development of the head cocking as clearly something is making her do that when she never has before! I promise I'm listening but i'm asking for help as i'm not sure where to go next!

I should have added to the previous post so sorry for not including this above - She's had saddler out and checked saddle all fine. Teeth and back are both ok. Vet had a check over this month whilst vaccinating and not lame or uncomfortable, no signs of ulcers etc. Nothing further was done than that though but no obvious cause to do anything else so not sure if another vet visit would be warranted. Barefoot and regularly trimmed, doesn't seem foot sore or unhappy there.

We hack (getting much better but not her favorite thing) and jump. She's ridden 3-5 times a week. Three by me, usually one school, one hack and one jump, though we've been missing the jumping for the last three weeks due to the lack of control. Lesson every other week. The other two are usually hacking.

Have only cantered when I've felt she's really needed the energy release. Maybe twice in the last three weeks? And have been doing lots of walk work because of how she's going in the trot but the walks actually pretty fine and the instructor is saying to focus on the trot work. I've never done much prolonged flexion work but I'm following instructors advice so it's hard to know what to do. This seems like the worst time to stop lessons but I'm also not sure they are helping! As said can't change instructor, also she's highly recommended and a professional so I'm usually the first person to tell people to listen to their instructors!

Shes in a eggbutt snaffle, this week I swapped to a hanging cheek french link. Previously in a Wilkie snaffle but swapped out when we were doing more dressage to the eggbutt. I've also just taken off her flash.
 

mariew

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What is your gut feeling, it's odd to go backwards rather than forwards especially with regular lessons etc. I'd be concerned that there is something physical going on, but as there doesn't seem to be, you need to find a different approach. Could you take her out to some clinics and in that way manage to use a different instructor?

It sounds like she's getting more and more unbalanced, for whatever reason. I don't think faffing about with bits would really make a radical difference (if any). Is she relying on you to hold her head up and then digging down to China with her front? (i.e. really heavy in the hands). You pull, she pulls more, etc - that kind of catch 22 is unlikely to get much better, only end up in a bigger fight. What happens if you don't grab the reins, and then ask gently for her to calm her pace? or if you need to grab the reins for safety to slow down not do it at a permanent, really hard contact? Edited to say i don't really focus on head/neck etc when riding as that will all come when the horse is more balanced in itself.

Shame you can't change instructor as by now they should be helping, not making her worse! Just because it's a professional teacher doesn't mean she is right for you and the horse. There are many highly recommended ones that don't work for me and my riding style.

Is she the same for other riders?
 

cobgoblin

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She sounds uncomfortable to me.. I know you've had the saddle checked, but did the fitter see her ridden?
 
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LegOn

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Has your instructor ridden her for you?

Sometimes my instructor rides my horse for me during a lesson to see why I'm not getting an exercise & to determine if its me or the horse! If she feels the horse is restricted or not capable, we normally get the physio out to check him over or sometimes its me & I need to learn properly what I'm asking!! My instructor is a 4* eventer which helps!!! If she cant teach my horse to do it, then its usually a physical issue.
 

redapple

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Thank you for all your responses; I'm sorry all mine have been so long!

She really varies in what she's doing. She'll lean and be very front heavy but she seems to have one level; She's either going nicely or she's leaning 'full' weight. If I give the reins then we gradually speed up and move sporadically around the arena. i.e I'd think she'd run to the gate or a corner and stop? Or just run round and round. But she just totters (or rather runs) in random directions changing direction apparently at random. She runs very close to the wall by default when she is on the track but other than the speed she's not really doing anything. She's never bucked or dropped a shoulder for example. She also tucks her head to her chest, puts her head high and tucked in or recently to the side.

She used to respond well to slowing the rise down but not at the moment! I give and take with the reins and try and use circles and changes of direction to slow her down but I've been doing this for a few weeks now and it doesn't seem to be making any difference long term.

Saddler saw me personally in saddler (as opposed to another rider) and has refitted/checked since. She's no different bareback, not that that is that useful a gauge I know.

As always with part-loaning one of the issues is that there's other riders doing different things. She does get ridden by two other people mostly, with a few others thrown in. Her owner doesn't like riding her, they've had a few 'arguments' before and they seem to wind each other up from what's been said. I'd say he rides once or twice a week. I've just been away for a few weeks so he's been on more than usual but generally isn't on more than that. There's also another man that rides, usually once a week who is a novice and takes her out hacking (just walk) with a friend of his. She takes the mick (as in eats or goes off on her own path) but is fine from what he's said. However in terms of what the other rider thinks is going on I'd say they think she's just being a pain. As I said its one of the hard parts of part loaning that there's more than one rider, and we don't always ride the same or have the same aims, but unfortunately it can't be changed. Owner is happy for me to work on changes and supportive in that.

Every time I write more I feel like it could be pain but there's nothing else (including vert check) to substantiate that. Sometimes I do find it odd that she's never been seen to buck (not even in the field) and whether there could be something there. She does rear (in hand and under saddle) and always has. It's definitely behavior related and has significantly reduced to the point that it was most rides to every couple of weeks and now limited to napping.
 

redapple

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I realise the above makes more sense with the knowledge that she's part of an owners herd and not their main horse! They've tried to sell a few times but the rearing and some other behavior points make her quite a hard sell.
 

ester

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Even if it's a long post that's really useful extra information as obviously the other riders do make a difference/neither are long term riders like the owner might have been who you could use to gauge if she had changed for them too, and if she hadn't why.

I'd strongly suspect that what you say is going on with your inside hand is reactionary because of how she is being.

Will your instructor ride her? If not do you know anyone experienced who could and see what they feel?

As she isn't a youngster (how old is she now) I wouldn't expect having more novice riders ride her would change her that much with you so I really would strongly suspect that something somewhere hurts. How is she to lunge?
 

redapple

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Instructor hasn't ridden her no, I'm supposed to be having a lesson tomorrow but with this weather we shall see! I will ask and see what she says (I've never seen them ride so I'm not actually sure if they still do).

I do have a very experienced horse acquaintance whose judgement I'd trust and could ask (I used to ride two of her horses for her but haven't seen her in a while). It just makes it harder as she's not mine having to ask permission from both the yard owner and the horse owner to let her ride. I will ask though!

She's late to mid teens (likely around 15) now. She lunges almost exactly the same as she rides. As in she does what she's told but she wants to go and is very quick in the paces. She head shakes a little but usually when she's shes asked to canter which she finds hard with her balance. No head cocking and no pinning to chest. But shes going quicker than she's 'allowed' whilst ridden. She's more consistent on getting the right lead on the lunge than ridden would be a noticeable difference. She's been under saddle just a little longer than I've been riding her so around 2 years.

I'll mention potential pain to instructor and owner and see if they agree. Is there anything that would be useful I could do to help indicate pain anywhere? She trots up sound on hard ground, turns fine, tracks up equally on both sides lunging, backs up fine, I've had a horse with ulcers before and she doesn't display any signs. I guess a bute trail would be the suggested?
 

be positive

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She sounds confused as much as anything, different riders, different expectations, she is not young but is green and sensitive.
I would suspect there may well be a pain issue somewhere but my gut instinct from reading your posts would be to get her eyes checked before anything else, you say she seems blinkered, runs into the fence, randomly turns which just suggests there could be an issue with her sight that is also upsetting her generally so she is tense, I may be completely wrong but it is an easy starting point even if it just rules it out.
 

Horsekaren

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I would ask your instructor to school her in one of your lessons (if she is able)

Your horse sounds quiet similar to a few issues i'm having and i too have a bad hand.
He will set his neck, he knows i am going to take the left rein and he wants me to, as soon as i do off he goes, bounces off the left rein and drags me across back on to the right rein, he finds it so hard to bend that way. He is weak that side anyway but my naughty hand has caused this behavior. My instructor tells me to play the rein, dont take it as that is what he wants, play play play and he cant lock and go.
Sometimes when i am getting in a pickle trying to get him to flex to the left i just drop the rein, encourage him forward and try and get him around my leg, it works, i think just for you to relax and take the pressure off the question being asked often helps.

I now know there is more to it and he is definitely not comfortable somewhere and i am in the process of finding out where/ back, hind legs ect...

I hope you get to the bottom of it.
 

irishdraft

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To me it sounds like the mare has always had a few ridden problems as you say owner cannot get on with her , rears etc. I think you will always be struggling with an older but sounds like uneducated horse who also has a couple of different probably novice riders . She sounds like she has become anxious and confused in your lessons hence the running on . I use flexion to the outside occasionally to get my horse off the left shoulder but only for a few strides then straighten again I certainly wouldn't be riding in continuous circles like that. You probably need to go back to very simple transitions and keep everything straight just in walk and trot and work up from there so the mare can relax and understand what you are asking her to do.
 

redapple

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Thank you for all the replies - Had a long chat with riding instructor about my concerns etc and then decided to have a lesson (one advantage of on-site instructors) to have a look what they thought with the knowledge of what I'm concerned about.

And in classic horse world....Lesson went really well. I asked about route forward with vet etc and she said she couldn't see anything in this or previous lessons that made her feel worried about pain or comfort. I'm going to keep an eye on it of course. Instructor also mentioned that I should probably video my riding as it doesn't look anywhere near as bad/extreme as I was describing. I will ask the vet to check her sight next time they are at the yard as that hasn't been looked into. She's never been spooky which I always associate with sight loss but it could make sense with a few things she does.

Today we went into the smaller school and had lovely periods of self-carriage (she's not strong enough to hold for the full lesson but moments were beautiful). She was much calmer in the pace and she tried so, so hard to figure out what was being asked. I don't know if she just wasn't distracted as she was the only horse in there or if being away from her field mates made her less stressed (the school is through the fields) but the ride was entirely different and much more her old self. So I'm going to stick in there for a few weeks and see how she feels/goes. If it was just a fluke and she's upset again I'll get vet out for a full check.

She also was in a different bridle (a collegiate comfort bridle lent by a friend) which im hoping wasn't the main reason as they're not that cheap....horses! I'll put the bit back on a different bridle and see how she goes.
 

cobgoblin

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Glad she went well.
If it is the bridle that's making a difference, we'll that's good really, isn't it?... A simple solution.
 

redapple

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I'd be happy to buy her one if that the case for sure. Just going to check its not just the bit first as I've got one of those!

I'm trying not to get too optimistic as when I wrote the original post I was so disheartened with not seeing her very happy that i'm trying not to go overboard on having had one ride where she felt back to normal. It still could very well be something physical but lets hope not.

I did talk about worrying I was over flexing and the new head cocking and the instructor talked more thoroughly about what she was asking us to do and I feel like I understand a lot better what I'm really asking for and what the feel im after is. There was no pinning head to the chest yesterday or any head cocking/flexing. Definitely just needed a good chat to the instructor and sort myself out a bit. It's been very useful to hear everyone's response too, getting outside opinions has really helped me think about what's been going on.
 

redapple

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hmmm very valid point. The other larger arena is rubber. It does always feel quite deep and a bit uneven underfoot to me when putting out jumps. The smaller one I was in is sand and hair(?) which is much more like her old arena. I haven't ever really taken her into the smaller arena as it's very small and with her balance, I thought it wouldn't suit so I can't really say what she was like in it before these few weeks/months of problems. I've also never competed her on rubber, so it could be surface.

I felt like I was giving her much more achievable goals to do when riding yesterday (rather than just the flexing of the previous lesson) so it could be a mix of everything but I hadn't thought about surface until then!
 

sam72431

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A horse that is running like that is a scared horse in most instances that I've found especially if she is like that jumping. You said back and saddle fine and no sign of ulcers but she sounds like she is running from something does she buck as well as rear? I would try feeding aloe Vera to her as that will help soothe any digestion problems she has. I used to work at a racehorse rehabilitation centre and the results on them was amazing!!!

I would also try long reining her (not lunging) as you can see what is going on on the long reins if you aren't sure how to do this find someone who is competent to show you. You need to be aiming at getting her walking long and low stretching her back and relaxing. You can once you are ready get her on a circle and work in Trot and canter. In ridden work I would use the pace she is happy (in walk) and just walk lots of big circles do lots of transitions in the walk ie small and slow and big walk half halt and halt and get her listening until you even think about trotting. You need to get her moving off of your aids as in moving her shoulders when you bring the reins to her shoulder (so hard to explain by typing) just moving around school lots of different shapes and circles not just going round and round. You can then progress to trot and more of same lots of transitions and shapes not just charging round and round the school. Get her listening and switched on! This works for racers and she sounds a bit like one so best of luck
 

meleeka

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Agree with everyone else. It could be any of those things. I’d personally want to rule out hocks in a 15 year old cob too. Whatever the reason, she’s finding it hard to do what you are asking, so setting more achievable goals seems very sensible for now.
 
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