Losing will to live with saddle fit! Flat tress, straightness and back lift!

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black_n_white

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I'm having massive trouble finding a saddle to fit my horse and would love some advice on what to try next.

He has smallish withers but his back drops down from his spine behind his shoulders. His back then rises from these hollows so that where the rear of the saddle sits is higher than the front. Everything I've tried so far lifts at the back and sits in behind his shoulders. His right shoulder is also bigger so saddles tend to roll left.

Originally I had a Thorowgood T4 fitted by someone else but this always rolled left and tipped me forwards (poss due to being too wide in front) i always felt out of balance and was advised by an eventer i had some lessons with, to get something flatter with smaller blocks. The first saddler was adamant the T4 was ok so I went elsewhere with a master saddler who was recommended on here.

In November last year I bought a Farrington event from the saddler. This originally seemed a good fit and I was much better in balance and our schooling and jumping improved. However it was soon lifting at the back and the saddler came out 4 times to tweak it. They came out again last week as the horse was getting increasingly stroppy to girth and had a sore back. Saddler advised that the tree is too curved and that we needed something with a flatter tree.

So I tried a Bates Caprilli, Albion k2 jump and a Stubben Artus. The saddler felt the Albion and the Stubben were the best options. Both of these rolled left on the right rein. The saddler advised this would ease as the saddle beds in.

I went with the stubben as it was flatter and more the sort of saddle I am looking for and was a straight swap for my farrington. I've ridden in it 5 times and the horse isn't happy in it. I cannot get any kind of outline. He only wants to go with his neck out and isn't moving forward very well. I mistook this for him stretching when I tried the saddles but have been told he's trying to relieve pressure. I had a lesson on Saturday with an instructor who also uses the same saddler to see what she thought. Her view was that the panels weren't big enough due to the scoop shape at the rear, it was lifting at the back in trot and over a fence and moving forward and back in canter.

Im not riding in it any more and have left a message for saddler to come back out. What else can I try? Is there anything else off the peg that is worth a look or would a made to measure address these issues?

Feel thoroughly fed up. Sorry for massive essay. Any suggestions much appreciated.
 
Treeless or soft tree? I am certainly not regretting buying my HM Vogue dressage saddle, pony has been going well & we are even jumping regularly in it now, much better than he's gone before - we are actually making progress for once :rolleyes: I will be looking at getting either her new cheaper synthetic GP saddle soon or eventually the GPT to jump in as I really couldn't be happier with it. :)
 
Any chance of a photo? The hollows you describe could be muscle wastage in which case buying a wider saddle and padding it could allow the muscles to regenerate and make him easier to fit in the long term - BUT they might just be conformational in which case I'd be inclined to ask a physio to give you exercises to do to even him up to reduce the likelihood of the saddles you try slipping left.
 
I feel your pain as I have had the same issues trying to fit my croup high horse & am having to live with a vsd for now :(

It sounds like the k2, Caprilli & stubben still don't have a flat enough tree. The only thing that will work for mine is pancake flat saddle, something along the lines of pessoa amo, GFS generation training or Bates Elevation might be worth a try?

As kaiserchief says you will need to shim for the asymmetry.

In my case the horse would push everything up her neck so the girthing was also really important. Found the best thing is a point strap with a rear y girthing (like on a dressage saddle)
 
Thanks for all the suggestions. I don't have any decent pictures- tried to take some tonight but it was too sunny!!

I have an album here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.35926672958.60622.755272958&type=3&l=b6c081d3cd.

The clipped ones are from last winter. The others of him stood up are as a 4 yo and the dips behind his shoulders are there so it looks like its just his conformation rather than muscle wastage caused by bad saddle fitting.
 
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You could try a good old fashioned irish Berney saddle...and probably a Stephens or similar withers gel pad...though if his back is sore it needs fixing before you get a new saddle, no saddle will fix that by itself


eta: just seen th epics, he's really flat-backed, a Stubben would destroy him. They're banana-shaped to fit continental horses who have a much hollower back than, say, the irish-bred who is naturally flat-backed. (and I got that info from my back woman, who says Stubben back damage keeps her mortgage paid monthly)
 
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I would try the native pony saddles. I have one for my very flat backed Connie x as it was the only one that doesn't lift at the back!
 
Yes niamh he is really flat. Thats interesting about the bananna tree of the Stubben - the saddler specifically said he needed something flatter but then picked the stubben for me to try.......

Ella- not thought of pony saddles. I have a big butt though so would need a 17.5in seat. Do they come in adult bum sizes?!
 
I'd be inclined to look at cob/native pony saddles - like Ella said, Native Pony Saddle Company saddles are lovely (and do come in big sizes). I used to have a Saddle Company Cob saddle on my super-chunky New Forest mare which was super. Thorowgood do a Cob model too which from memory is pretty nice for the money. I reckon you'd need to find a saddle fitter open to shimming to help even up the asymmetry initially but fingers crossed you can get him sorted :)
 
Big butt + flat horse....try to get your hands on a Berney + Gel pad (gel, not sheepskin or other fancy stuff). They are cheap second hand. In fact they are rather cheap new, considering. Not sure how widespread they are in England but here in Ireland they're everywhere, being the #1 make
Try Ebay or Donedeal.ie and Berneysaddles.com to at least get an idea about them :)

From experience I found a too wide arch (and low wither) can also annoy them at the shoulder. Not recommending a something too narrow but you'd nearly be better off. IMO on those fb pics, that saddle he has is too low and wide for him, at a glance. Out of my head I'd get a Berney medium if you go second hand. They have tons of big seats, having catered for big hunting irish men for a century or so

eta: and a saddle slipping is an indication that it is too wide in the gullet IMO
 
Niamh - I've not heard of Berney - off to research now! The saddle in those pics is my Thorowgood and would agree it was too wide - I always felt like I was perched and tipped forwards and it was impossible to be in balance landing from a jump. The horse seemed to like it though and it didn't make him sore like the ones I've had from my current saddler......

Thanks everyone for some really useful suggestions. I know the saddler I'm using stocks Ideals and Jeffries so will ask them to bring some of them to try. I will look into pony and cob saddles too - he's flat front to back but doesn't have a flat "table" back from side-to-side though - would the panels on a cob saddle for example be at too flat an angle to actually sit on his back? Not sure if I've explained that very well.....

I'll try and get some better photos of him stood up later today.
 
dafthoss said:
I have a jeffries falcon hawk event on my flat backed connie might be worth a go?
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Theses are great saddles for flat backed horses ie proper natives cobs but do not fit a sports horse /pony type who isn't very wide over the back with little wither.

OP my pony has very similar back conformation and cob saddles do not suit but agree with the flat tree, have a look at close contact jump saddles as that's what I currently have and fits pony perfectly but still looking for a gp/wh/dr as they tend to perch or come up off the back as she has little wither like yours. I have a Townfields which is the only thing that fitted after 40 plus saddles. Try the older gfs saddles they have flatter trees I think, ideals have definitely got flatter trees having had a look at most of their models.
 
I'm a fitter for Native Pony & Cob Saddles Ltd, and we are the only supplier of the authentic Native Pony saddles, just in case you find other people purporting to sell them (!) and hopefully I can help.

Not sure how anyone is able to tell anything about how his saddles fit, certainly from the photos I can see, but my instinct would be to fit him with a tree that is flat from front to back, and possibly with a fairly short seat size, if possible. This helps get away from the issues resulting from him being slightly croup high.

We have two ranges of saddles that can fit a variety of wide horses, we definitely have larger seat sizes (we stock up to 17.5 but can make larger) and don't only fit table top horses. I have Irish Sport horses and other more "normal" shaped horses on my books and sometimes eve fit as narrow as a medium fit :D
 
black_n_white said:
Niamh - I've not heard of Berney - off to research now!
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That's amazing, they are the top irish saddle makers. Goes to show....Their saddles would be made to fit irish draughts and irish sport horses, and your lad looks exactly the type. They do the old fashioned brown leather types saddles with deep seats, deadly comfortable for a medium rider, and are absolutely indestructible.
 
With the help of a good saddle fitter the Kent and Masters range may help. They have a website with info on the range they offer. I have had the cob version for a couple of years now and it fits great, never moves and my wide fell pony seems much happier. I previously had tried a treeless and wintec cob but this is the only saddle which fitted my pony and is comfortable for me as well!! You could try a treeless as my barefoot was good just didnt find it as comfortable as Kent and Masters and you cant get on from the ground which isnt great when your out hacking!
 
correct me if I'm wrong but this horse doesn't look wide to me and his withers is fairly visible. The OP even said he had muscle wastage behind the withers which would make him even narrower.
 
You are very close to Kay Humphries who I'd highly recommend, she is now based in Wheatley near Oxford. She is streets ahead of most saddle fitters, you will only need to buy a saddle once and it should last you for years (with regular checks & reflocks etc of course) - this has been my experience and that of many of my clients.

Competely different to the usual rigmarole of saddles that seem to fit, then mysteriously don't fit a couple of months later. Also she has a range of saddle to fit different pockets from a couple of hundred £s to m2m at £1500ish. Number is 01494 676 583, nortonandnewby.co.uk . I honestly wouldn't go to anyone else.
 
niamh said:
That's amazing, they are the top irish saddle makers. Goes to show....Their saddles would be made to fit irish draughts and irish sport horses, and your lad looks exactly the type. They do the old fashioned brown leather types saddles with deep seats, deadly comfortable for a medium rider, and are absolutely indestructible.
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They are great saddles I have two in attic which dont fit any of the horses I have now but I cant bear to part with them.
 
Thanks Eatmoremincepies - I was chatting to someone at the yard about Kay Humphries this evening - she does sound great. I sat this girls saddle on mine and it certainly looked like it sat at the back better than anything I've tried so far!!

I will certainly bear her in mind as a reserve - I'm kind of tied in with the current saddler at the moment - as I've spent £1300 on a brand new saddle 8 months ago so I really want to find a solution with them otherwise I'm totally out of pocket and only have a 2nd hand saddle which I have to try and sell so £600 tops. Have an appointment tomorrow so fingers crossed! I think if I'm still not happy with what they show me tomorrow I'll have to cut my losses. I really don't fancy my luck in trying to get any money back - saddler is still adamant that the Stubben fits fine. Sigh.

Anyway... as promised here are some pictures from this evening.

IMG_6322.jpg


IMG_6324.jpg


IMG_6327.jpg


IMG_6326.jpg
 
niamh said:
correct me if I'm wrong but this horse doesn't look wide to me and his withers is fairly visible. The OP even said he had muscle wastage behind the withers which would make him even narrower.
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Yes there is muscle wastage there but that doesn't change the width required that much - often the tracing is concave but the part of the tracing where the points would be is still wider than you think, people go to a narrow saddle to get clearance but judicious use of padding is a much better option.

It's not a back I'd think a Stubben would fit. DO post pics of saddles girthed up firmly with no pad if you're trying any, or of the Stubben if you keep it.
 
If I recall correctly... my ID x TB was a similar shape to this. I had a manor medium fit saddle for him.

You can pick them up quite cheaply on ebay/preloved
 
Sbloom- I'm really not happy with how the Stubben looks on his back. Saddler is adamant its a good fit though but horse is really not happy in it so he gets the final say! I'll post some pictures of it and anything else I try later.
 
The newer stubbens do seem to be more suitable for flat backed horses, but as you say, the horse has the final say! They sat quite well on my mare who was massively flat, but has now developed and is very croup high! I would second the close contact saddle route, and would look at Barnsby, Equipe and possibly pessoa....
 
Thanks KatB - I don't think this is one of the flatter trees - it looks very curved to me.

This is the Stubben girthed up:
Stubben1.jpg


and you can see here how there is a really small panel surface area in contact with his back:

Stubben2.jpg


But what worries me the most is I can lift the back like this when it is girthed up:

stubben3.jpg
 
So the story continues........

I had someone else from the same place come out last night and now have a Prestige close contact to try for a week. It is a slight compromise as I'll need to use a gel pad to help provide some cushioning and pad out the hollows a bit. It looks a better fit to my untrained eye and my horse went much better (even without the gel pad) - softer and more relaxed and would work in an outline which he wouldn't do at all in the Stubben. My instructor is going to have a look at it tonight.

Prestige1.jpg


Prestige2.jpg
 
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