LouiseM lesson reports Mon and Tues.

kerilli

kerilli

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I took Miss Special Needs, the grey one, as I had her thermal scanned last week and the only major thing it showed was that she has v poor circulation to all 4 lower limbs (might explain numbness and poor proprioception, of which more later), and I rode her a few times after that and she felt absolute fine. (On the scans there were no hotspots on hocks, back, no signs of KS etc.)
For anyone awaiting their lesson with trepidation, relax, L is very encouraging and positive. She spots problems instantly and is very no-nonsense - fantastic.
She watched me work Flo warming up and decided that the mare needed to be ridden in a really advanced outline, at least for a while, condensed, shortened, not allowing a drop of energy to dribble out of the front end. She agreed with me that the mare doesn't go 'on her head', it's weird because she feels light and lovely in her mouth, in fact she goes 'on her shoulders', a totally different feeling.
Louise decided that the mare thinks slowly (which I put squarely at the door of her part-CB blood!) and either L or TarrSteps (who was also there) said, and I think this needs to be in 8' high neon letters,
"You can't go quicker than the horse can think." Since this one thinks slowly (not something I am used to AT ALL, my horses have all been very quick thinkers!) she needs more time to process what she needs to do and to work out how to use her body. Weird for a 9 year old with quite a bit under her belt...
(fwiw I know she has been ridden like this in the past but maybe not quite so UP UP UP and together. obviously my trial of the other way absolutely didn't work for her, she's clearly not the sort who can be left alone to 'own the fence' at all, so i'm totally onboard about this.)
We did lots of work on walk to canter and canter to walk, small circles in canter, getting her really shortening and sitting. L was hot on getting the engine going and then condensing the frame and keeping the power (did that with others and me).
Huge emphasis on STRAIGHTNESS of the horse and the neck, on using the outside rein, not having too much bend, keeping control of the shoulders - L said that too much inside bend was something she'd seen a lot over here (and this was on the first day!)
Started using an exercise of (numbers are metres, x = small cross-pole)
trot to: pole 3 x 3 x 3 pole 7 pole 8 pole
getting her to bounce through in a very short, UP way.
after quite a few times when she was starting to use her body better, replaced last 2 poles with an upright, then final one altered to an oxer.
did this quite a few times, huge emphasis on me keeping contact, keeping her short and contained, telling and putting her where I want, not allowing her to freewheel for a single stride. oh, and keeping myself very upright, which i find difficult. this mare's very good for me because she plays to all my weaknesses.
did that a few times, got it good, then carried on round to a small x pole over a water tray.
this is where it got a little bizarre.
I kept the canter really together all the way around, great rhythm, good spot even if i do say so myself. she took off fine, and then after she took off she did THE most bizarre things ever with her front legs. TarrSteps and L are my witnesses. I saw her left fore punch out straight in front of her like Superman... and they said it was as if she took off and then went through all the things she might need to do with her front legs. Most bizarre and very telling. She overjumped it again the next time but not quite so weirdly (not a spooky or ditchy horse btw), and we came back round to an oxer which she did very nicely.
Enough for that session. More interesting stuff:
TarrSteps came to do some bodywork on her in the horsebox afterwards and did 1 of her usual little proprioception/sensitivity tests: tread on horse's coronets. NO reaction, on either front foot. Usually they snatch their foot up instantly. Eventually a bit of reaction but nothing on the outside of either front foot. (I KNOW this mare has not been denerved btw!) After quite a few times the mare was finally getting the idea "something's standing on my foot, umm, suppose I ought to do something about it"... and then TS stood on 1 of her feet and she picked the other one up. ;) ;) ;) Telling telling telling. Trying to please, and learning/guessing good-naturedly, but still not actually FEELING it... hmmmm.
Pot of coffee and big cookies if you got this far, today's lesson in next bit...
 
So you think it's not that she's careless because she doesn't care, she just doesn't actually know what her legs are doing so guesses? Very interesting, and I'd be really interested in how you're going to work with her :)

Sounds like a really interesting lesson- bloody exams meaning there was absolutely no point signing Al up for them ><
 
Today: warmed up a bit in walk and trot as another lesson finished, and L decided to get on and have a feel. She got the mare very short and up, and did her fiendish 'poles in a fan on a smallish circle, 3m centres' exercise on her (as used on the morning session girls), both ways. The mare really started to use herself to reach for the last few poles, in a very UP, opening-body kind of way. Great to see. When we swapped over again she told me she'd had a few kilos in her outside hand... ah, BIG lightbulb moment. I have never had to have that much in my hand on any horse, i tend to aim for a lot less... but i can totally see why this big long-backed weak pulling-herself-along on her shoulders mare needs that much condensing.
worked on the pole-fan, tricky tricky tricky. have to steer, hold, condense, leglegleg all the way, and give just enough to allow horse to come UP but not let the energy go. Fantastic exercise.
Then onto one L did with quite a few horses over the 2 days.
3 small pyramids of 3 poles on the floor at 12m and 12m distances, so, 3 and 3 strides in a straight line, from both directions.
when that is totally nailed with all strides identical, the pyramids become small x poles (middles about 60cm at a guess).
mustn't see a long one to the first, got to keep it short, bouncy, straight and totally contained.
great exercise, really showed up every flaw in the training etc, i saw a couple do it yesterday and 1 other today and it is a fantastic exercise, highly recommended.
had to concentrate on keeping every single stride together. once when i got the perfect deep shot to the first x pole and relaxed because of it, the canter instantly got longer and nearly fluffed up the rest of the grid. this mare needs her hand held every nanosecond, and loves that much containment, it really gives her confidence.
L said to put hands together on withers as she took off, to channel her absolutely straight, even the slightest bit of give and she wanders and wonders where i've gone, kind of thing. weird.
finally put back rail on final x, about 1m 5 ish i guess, not big but bigger than we'd been doing, still keeping 3 short strides to each. once, i managed to lose her to the second and she jumped it big, and i saw 2 strides to the next (eeek, no, going to get a rollicking for that!) so pulled her out, and got told off for that instead! oopsy. concentrates the mind! did a much better job the next time...!
so, lots of homework to do, but L said she saw an improvement in the front end action over the two days, so I'll keep my hopes up.
Unfortunately no pics or vid as my cameraman's abroad and i didn't want to risk riding down to arena carrying spangly new mega-camera and asking someone else to use it!
gin and sympathy if you got through all that i think!
anyone else with lessons booked with Louise - enjoy, she's fabulous!
 
Lolo said:
So you think it's not that she's careless because she doesn't care, she just doesn't actually know what her legs are doing so guesses? Very interesting, and I'd be really interested in how you're going to work with her :)

Sounds like a really interesting lesson- bloody exams meaning there was absolutely no point signing Al up for them ><
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Yes, I think so. She's a really really honest and conscientious horse, she just doesn't quite know how on earth to use her body to cope with these tricky things people aim her at...! And I think she has been taught enough to have a lot of the tools in the box, but grabs the wrong one at the wrong time... (as evidenced by the weird midair ninja front leg thing over the water tray, it was freaky.)
I have Larry Bensusan booked to come and treat her and 2 others, should be very very interesting, I really rate him. Hopefully he can get her back good enough to improve the circulation to her lower legs.
 
It's really not normal to have no proprioception. Next time your vet is out I'd get them to poke her a bit, very odd!
 
Well is does sound really promising and must be a relief in some ways- it's not that she doesn't care, but that she really does but just doesn't know what to do.

Who is Larry Bensusan?
 
he's a very very good back guy from Essex way. I use my usual McTimoney man most of the time (and he's fantastic) but Larry uses shiatsu and other stuff and is stronger (i've had him treat me and it's v diff to McT) and it's better for some horses, so he's my next go-to person...

N.B. N.B. N.B.
I think there is an error in those distances up there, can't edit now of course. I asked Louise afterwards and she said the 3-stride distances were 12m, BUT i just texted TarrSteps and she said the same exercise yesterday was 15m because she strided it out.... i thought 12m sounded v v short for a 3-stride distance for horses! So, be careful... I'll get L to confirm later. Ta.
 
Well the mare sounds fascinating (although I'm sure you would rather she wasn't quite as fascinating!!).

I'm interested in how you think a back person will change bloodflow to her limbs or her proprioception ability, wouldn't it be more linked to neural pathway type stuff?

I'd be inclined to go straight to vets with the proprioception issue and see if they can suggest something, if not I'm not sure how you would ever have her safe enough to take XC ... there is good reason why de-nerved horses are banned from BE!
 
Glad you enjoyed the lessons. Your mare sounds interesting.

I had a horse that wasn't very good at show jumping I remember the last time I jumped him, after he had 7 down in a BN and my friend walked over and trod on his foot - there was nothing there, no reaction, and she said if he won't move his foot when I stand on it what hope have you got jumping a fence - he became a happy hacker. But that was years ago and science has moved on - hope you get an answer.
 
kerilli said:
N.B. N.B. N.B.
I think there is an error in those distances up there, can't edit now of course. I asked Louise afterwards and she said the 3-stride distances were 12m, BUT i just texted TarrSteps and she said the same exercise yesterday was 15m because she strided it out.... i thought 12m sounded v v short for a 3-stride distance for horses! So, be careful... I'll get L to confirm later. Ta.
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I am really glad you posted that because I was working out your distances with horror :D:D
 
ihatework said:
Well the mare sounds fascinating (although I'm sure you would rather she wasn't quite as fascinating!!).

I'm interested in how you think a back person will change bloodflow to her limbs or her proprioception ability, wouldn't it be more linked to neural pathway type stuff?

I'd be inclined to go straight to vets with the proprioception issue and see if they can suggest something, if not I'm not sure how you would ever have her safe enough to take XC ... there is good reason why de-nerved horses are banned from BE!
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Yes, i'd much rather she was boring and obvious, i'm not one of those who likes to believe their horse is super-speshul!
hmm, not sure really, but when my back is bad it affects my nerves etc too (sciatica etc), it's not just about bloodflow obviously.
yes, point taken, but there are denerved horses competing (allegedly) at high levels... ;) ;) ;)
 
kerilli said:
yes, point taken, but there are denerved horses competing (allegedly) at high levels... ;) ;) ;)
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Those are the PSD horses and that denerving affects a very small part of the back of the leg, nothing like having the feet denerved. There might be some feet ones competing but that would be quite scary.
 
Rowreach said:
I am really glad you posted that because I was working out your distances with horror :D:D
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well, exactly. maybe the heat had been getting to L! i asked her in the kitchen afterwards and she definitely said 12m... as i drove past the arena going out i was looking at the gaps between the jumps thinking 'really? really really? erm... okay' because i can only see distances in yards not metres, but i knew it shouldn't be that far out...!
 
Certainly an interesting case, you've got there. If she doesn't seem to be aware which foot to move when she's being trodden on, that sounds like more than a lack of proprioception, but also a lack of (or limited) sensation :confused:

dieseldog said:
I had a horse that wasn't very good at show jumping I remember the last time I jumped him, after he had 7 down in a BN and my friend walked over and trod on his foot - there was nothing there, no reaction, and she said if he won't move his foot when I stand on it what hope have you got jumping a fence - he became a happy hacker. But that was years ago and science has moved on - hope you get an answer.
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I'm not convinced mine would move if you trod on his foot. He'd know you were there, but he probably wouldn't much care! Still, he's not meant to be a high level show jumper so we'll probably not have too many issues with that :o
 
JFTD said:
I'm not convinced mine would move if you trod on his foot.
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Ditto. Think mine would just stare at me with that "You do some strange things mum" look. Then carry on eating :rolleyes:

All very interesting, thanks K! Shame no photos/vids though ;)

I've been meaning to put a fan up to work around as we've been working on short/bouncy/energetic canter not-quite-pirouettes-but-almost in my flatwork lessons and I thought a fan might help me keep the jump in his strides.
 
kerilli said:
N.B. N.B. N.B.
I think there is an error in those distances up there, can't edit now of course. I asked Louise afterwards and she said the 3-stride distances were 12m, BUT i just texted TarrSteps and she said the same exercise yesterday was 15m because she strided it out.... i thought 12m sounded v v short for a 3-stride distance for horses! So, be careful... I'll get L to confirm later. Ta.
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And TarrSteps has just bothered to look at the actual sheet of paper from Monday and it say 14m to 14m but I seem to remember we might have pushed them out a smidge. Anyway, that doesn't mean it wasn't 12 and 12 on Tues! Also, the exercise was originally built to accommodate oxer-vertical-oxer but no one got that far. :) (I didn't even get as far as the three with three strides. :) ) That's quite tricky since it makes the distances mega short.

The other side was 7m to 22, bending lines on 22m and 26m.
 
Today the three X-poles were on 12 and 12, absolutely definitely (I walk a pretty standard yard to each of my strides). Yesterday I walked the same exercise on 14yds, and the other exercise we did yesterday on one horse stride (just <7yds) followed by 4 horse strides on 17yds. Everything was much shorter than BS distances but because we had the canter right even my 17.2 heffalump eventually made it feel like it was long!
 
JFTD said:
Certainly an interesting case, you've got there. If she doesn't seem to be aware which foot to move when she's being trodden on, that sounds like more than a lack of proprioception, but also a lack of (or limited) sensation :confused:



I'm not convinced mine would move if you trod on his foot. He'd know you were there, but he probably wouldn't much care! Still, he's not meant to be a high level show jumper so we'll probably not have too many issues with that :o
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You'd have to do a lot more tests to determine if the horse can't feel the stimulus or can't process it properly.

Standing on the coronet in a particular way elicits a reaction from most horses, even if you have to do it quite hard and the wheels turn slowly. You see vets do it all the time to make horses stand up in a certain way, keep their other foot on a plate box etc. In this case I was interested in the way her feet looked (not bad shoeing or pathology, just a hmm moment) so stood on her to get her to stand up and did not get the reaction I expected. Not getting the reaction you expect, even if you're not sure why you're getting the reaction you get, is the jumping off point for problem solving.
 
Gamebird said:
Today the three X-poles were on 12 and 12, absolutely definitely (I walk a pretty standard yard to each of my strides). Yesterday I walked the same exercise on 14yds, and the other exercise we did yesterday on one horse stride (just <7yds) followed by 4 horse strides on 17yds. Everything was much shorter than BS distances but because we had the canter right even my 17.2 heffalump eventually made it feel like it was long!
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Cool. Thanks for clarifying. What was the reasoning for pulling the distances in that much for day 2, even with "new" horses, do you know? (I'm personally a fan of the short distance! :)) Was the other line the same?

Love your sig, btw.
 
I'm not sure tbh. I didn't even process the difference (we did different exercises to K today, more of a course) until on the drive home - blame the sun or the wine!

I'm uploading a vid of what Baydale and I did today - including a treble with two strides between each part on 10yds and 10yds which will satisfy your appreciation of short distances! Neither of us could canter over a fan of 5 canter poles nicely straight off either :eek:.
 
Would that be yards or meters? ;) (Pedants-R-Us)

Canter fans are very difficult! Then you can go mad and raise one end of the poles . . . :eek:
 
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My strides, which tend towards then imperial rather than the metric. Louise also jumped Fugly today (after working him on the flat y'day). I suspect she might be having a lie down in a dark room by now ;). We'll save raising one end (which end?) of the poles for next year I think.
 
This is the course Baydale and I finished on today, though Jupe got to jump it up another 10cm afterwards. Fugly was too pooped, plus Louise wanted to jump him at the end.

[youtube]ox3o8ksedOM[/youtube]
 
Great write up K, and very interesting about MSN's. Daughter and I really enjoyed our lesson yesterday, felt a massive improvement in both horses which has translated into a much better flat work session today, Louise really is an excellent trainer.
 
How about taking her shoes off? Can help increase blood flow to the foot and enhance proprioception.
 
Ah okay.
Well, 12m is actually 13.1 yards so maybe not quite as horrifically short as I thought... didn't realise it would be that many yards. So, not 15...
N.B. N.B. N.B. N.B. N.B. again...!!!!!!
It was 13.1 yards then 13.1 yards, everyone!!!

foxy1, i have thought about that, will have a chat with vet about it. ta.

Gamebird, that looks like a different horse to yesterday, wow at that short frame, super!
Agreed alwaysbroke, she is an excellent trainer. :) :) :)
 
Gamebird said:
My strides, which tend towards then imperial rather than the metric. Louise also jumped Fugly today (after working him on the flat y'day). I suspect she might be having a lie down in a dark room by now ;). We'll save raising one end (which end?) of the poles for next year I think.
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I saw Mark Todd use the same exercise and for very advanced horses he raised the outside ends of the poles (then went both directions, obviously) on blocks as a strengthening and proprioceptive exercise. Talk about having to lie down in a dark room!

For anyone watching at home, that's not one to play around with too much, as it's a lot of concentrated work for a horse!

He looks fab, Gb. Big change. (Not that is was awful before . . .oh, you know what I mean . . I'll stop digging now!)
 
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