Lower leg position and jumping

[Ginn]

Why is it that in general show jumpers have a poor lower leg position (i.e. it flying back) compared to eventers, especially at the top levels - surely if you're jumping grade A then your lower leg should be as secure as an advanced event riders??

Also, any tips for improving the lower leg position while we're on the subject (not that there is any chance of me getting on a horse any time soon, let alone jumping it!)

 

[JM7]

i wouldnt be bothered about my if i was them...

they seem to manage quite well with the way they ride!!

wish my leg position was similar if i could aspire to what they do!

 

[Super_Kat]

When you jump the sized fences that they do I think your lower leg may slip back aswell

 

[mrdarcy]

I'm guessing the size of the fences have something to do with it but as I've never jumped Grade A sized tracks I'm only guessing.

As for keeping a stable lower leg position I've just started jumping seriously again after a few years of stressaging and whilst my left leg stays wonderfully still and where it should be, my right leg has a complete mind of its own. My instructor keeps telling me to relax my knee... i.e I'm gripping with my knee which throws my lower leg back. As I relax the knee more and keep my heel down my wandering right leg is behaving better and better.

 

[Beanyowner]

The thing I always think about riding...which is probably why I disagree with the BHS quite a lot...is that if it works and the horse isn't bothered they WHY do you have to conform to a certain way of riding??

Like you said...many professional riders...if scrutinised closely have many faults with their riding but I don't see them changing them...because its what works for the horse. The BHS pump into peoples heads that each horse is individual...so ride them that way I reckon!!

 

[tw1nn1ejo]

i suppose it's the size of the fences that make there lower leg go back. i used to have a problem with my lower leg position but now it's much better so i suppose it's just practice, otherwise i don't have any tips. sorry!
xxx

 

[Ginn]

Fair point - Im not trying to critise but it was just an observation and I figured it was most likely for good reason as so many SJ's lower leg is much more behind the girth than the average eventers. Maybe "secure" wasn't the best word to use - Im sure both must have a secure position or we'd be seeing a lot more riders on the floor!

 

[Claireg9]

No i totally agree with you Jentilly!
Most have an absolutley rubbish lower leg over a jump, unfortunately i think its picked up early on when young riders ride ponies they are too big for so they adjust by throwing there legs back so as not to knock the jump down!
they will be slightly more unbalanced then eventers but then eventers generally need to be more secure as alot more can go wrong with solid fences and difficult combinations.
Ben Maher is a great example he used to have a rubbish lower leg of late ive noticed it has improved no end so this proves it is nothing to do with the size of the fence!
but having said that so long as they keep getting results i also think why change it.
The only thing is if the horse starts to take advantage they may come unstuck, Nick Skelton had a rubbish position coming into the fence at Hickstead on Arko, Arko has lost confidence of late and felt he was wrong at the fence and put in and extra stride then decided he could not jump from there, unfortunately Nick had already decided he was jumping... hence a nasty fall on a big gate!
Poor Nick, but cant help thinking if he was sat up he never would of fallen or it would of been a lot less evil.

 

[Kelly1982]

Wasn't there a post on this sort of thing a while ago and i think it was mentioned the SJ and Eventers have different styles of riding when approaching fences etc and thats another reason why you tend to get the slightly different leg positions.

I could be totally off track here though

 

[Rambo]

I think eventers tend to ride much more defensively than SJ'ers which will have an effect on lower leg and seat over the fence. Obviously the size of fences is a contributory factor as well...if you're going 'up' 5 feet+ before going forwards, you tend to rotate the lower leg in relation to the horses body during take-off, but are in fact just keeping the leg horizontal in relation to the ground. As the amount of rotation is greater over a bigger fence, then so the leg has further to return as the horse moves through it's bascule.

 

[lizstuguinness]

eventers CANT showjump !!!!! the style is completly different. as are the way that the horses are trained. look at the way they move showjumpers are more uphill and very short and bouncy striding, eventers tend to be longer in the stride the course are also a bit more longer and more spaced out whereas sj is more bendy and confined.

also the fences dont go much above 3ft 6 which in sj is novice height . for anyone who is unaware noivce level is BN, Dis, New, and fox. 1.25m - 1.40 inter level, anything over 1.40 is concidered advanced.

to improve leg position lunge and jump for hours without stirrups. then when you can manage a hour without stirrups do all canter/trot work standing up with kness slightly bent absorbing movement.

rob hoekstra taught me this and it bloody kills, but works.

it s nice to know that claireg9 could teach nick skelton a few things, obviously she knows exactly how to handle a really difficult stallion that has passed though several riders hands.
perhaps she should run some clinics to help them!

i personaly am dyslexic and find that riding is difficult for me but i used to ride at 1.30m level (prior to illnesss) and i personaly admire many of the top riders for their individula skills. nicks skill, incidentaly is getting the best out of dam difficult horses. he sits very quietly and has excellent hands.
arko is still a bit inexperianced (not taking advantage) and nick had reduced is rides to spend more time with him. i believe he now only rides for one family.

the continental way of riding is so much better than BHS.
just think of your postion as you turn a corner, you are actualy quiet "twisted", the contin. way just uses weight aids eh look where you are going and your hands will naturaly adjust on the horses mouth. the reason they can ride this way is because the horse is taught at a younge age to balance itself. they spend a lot of time freeschooling and alow the horses longer to mature before putting a rider up. they also dont lunge beleiving this encourages the horses to fall in- they have a good point there.

 

[Bossanova]

[ QUOTE ]
eventers CANT showjump !!!!! the style is completly different. as are the way that the horses are trained. look at the way they move showjumpers are more uphill and very short and bouncy striding, eventers tend to be longer in the stride the course are also a bit more longer and more spaced out whereas sj is more bendy and confined.

also the fences dont go much above 3ft 6 which in sj is novice height . for anyone who is unaware noivce level is BN, Dis, New, and fox. 1.25m - 1.40 inter level, anything over 1.40 is concidered advanced.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you think that then you obviously know nothing about eventing!!
FYO, novice level eventing sj is 1.15, intermediate is 1.25 and advancd is 1.30. Call those small fences?? Intermediates are as tricky as fox tracks- theyre twisty, have related distances which arent always built to exact strides and you need a horse that is careful and bold.

 

[Weezy]

OMFG and you are qualified to pass such judgement because of?????

Unless you have ridden big tracks, difficult horses, PROPER SJ courses you have NO right to advise Nick Skelton

Sorry am rather peed off about your attitude - See if you ride a horse 100% correctly from the SEAT then your lower leg is acutally NOT important - you hold a horse with your seat and thighs - look at Lisa (Argh surname escapes me) she only has one full leg yet manages better than most becuase she knows that the thigh area is THE most important contact you can have

Yes sometimes we need to shivvy a horse on with our heels, but there is nothing more perfect than watching someone ride through their thigh, seat and sympathetic body

 

[Rambo]

I too was trained by Rob...for almost 15 years...and yes, his methods were radical back in the 80's when the 'continental' style was unheard of over here...I still follow many of his methods today, but to suggest that his is the only way that works is a little short-sighted ! Rob lists amongst his idols John Whitaker (who wouldn't), but their riding styles are very different in many respects. To suggest that Eventers can't showjump is also something of a generalisation don't you think ? Just because they tackle things in a different way, doesn't mean they can't do it. Many eventers compete on the local BSJA circuit while the eventing season is taking a break...and trust me, they do pretty well !

I would question your categorisations of Novice, Intermediate and Advanced level showjumping too...Arko (the number 1 horse in the world...'for anyone who is unaware') came 2nd at RIHS in a national 1.40m class in an outside arena...1.40m is very much at the advanced level. In BSJA terms 'Intermediate' would be anything classified as Grade B...i.e 1.25m to 1.35m...I suggest you are confusing 'Advanced' and 'International' level at the upper end of the scale.

Your comments about the continentals allowing horses more time before putting a rider on top...well, I find that quite remarkable. The 'continental way' is to ship a horse out to it's first show on it's 4th birthday, and if it isn't jumping 1.30m+ by the time it's 7 then it's not going to make it ! Admittedly, they do spend more time getting the flat work right first before jumping, but even so, they know how to factory farm horses like no other

 

[Puppy]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing is if the horse starts to take advantage they may come unstuck, Nick Skelton had a rubbish position coming into the fence at Hickstead on Arko, Arko has lost confidence of late and felt he was wrong at the fence and put in and extra stride then decided he could not jump from there, unfortunately Nick had already decided he was jumping... hence a nasty fall on a big gate!
Poor Nick, but cant help thinking if he was sat up he never would of fallen or it would of been a lot less evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

*is speechless for a minute*

Did you seriously just write that?!

Hey, heres an idea, how about you get in touch with Nick, email him and offer him some lessons?! Tell him you think he need to "sit up more" to stop him falling off!!

I would love to read the response you'd get back

 

[Oaksflight]

Eventers ride far more defensively than show jumpers. Typically they need a more secure position, after all XC fences are solid, SJ knock down. SJ fences are typically larger too. The XC style is far more like hunting style too. I would say it is a more secure position, a lower leg nearer the girth gives you more balance if a horse was to refuse, and they do need a secure position due to the ground as well. Personally I feel a lot more secure and comfortable in more of an XC position than SJ, with my leg flung back.

 

[MissDeMeena]

When you're sooo secure in the saddle (such as an eventers position) you're not giving the horse as much freedom to jump big fences... SJers are alot looser in the saddle, giving their horses more freedom!!
SJers obviously jump much bigger fences than an eventer ever will... But an eventer isn't going to fall off when horse leaves a leg behind over a solid fence...

You get me?