lower level BE- just a dressage competition?

diggerbez

diggerbez

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just been perusing the results from stafford today and there are some very impressive scores (not from me i hasten to add :rolleyes:)....but really it just looks like a dressage comp- hardly any faults SJ and XC... do we think this is right? or should the jumping elements carry more weight? discusss..... :p
 
My jumping elements always seem to carry weight.... ;) Well, showjumping does.
If I finished on my SJ score alone I would be a happy person with a good dressage !
 
yep, imo BE80, Intro and PN are dressage competitions with a fast canter thrown in.

BUT I don't think you can make the courses any more technical or harder as that isn't fair on youngsters coming up the grades or newcomers to eventing.

If you look at the results of people in the rosettes you will see that the majority are either pros or people who have been competing at lower level BE for 5+ years and have no plans to move up (fair enough, not everyone wants to).

However, it does make me think that the new Foundation Points should be used to move people over to the Open sections which would mix up the normal sections a bit more.
 
You do have to be very good at dressage I am afraid to get a higher placing at the lower levels.
I have seen some photos of stafford intro, looked a straight forward course but certainly asked enough for the beginners, was I right in seeing fence 3 was a ditch, ok a very inviting open ditch but a ditch.
It also had a lovely mini sucken road.

I think the bottom line is if you want to get more competitive then you have to improve your dressage, the test at the lower level is very basic most types are capable of a very good score if the ground work has been done, ok it may mean investing in a good instructor.
And is it a bad thing that to do well you have to be good at flat, as the more balanced and in control your horse then the safer you will be at the jumping parts.

Those that are in the lower levels to bring on a young horse usually will not mind not coming in the top placings if their horse has gone well, as their aim is for experiance to move up fairly quickly.
 
Yes and no-there is no doubt you need to do a good dressage to finish in the top three but sj has a big influence as well-one fence down and that wastes your good score. I think Stafford (and Draycott) pitched their courses perfectly for the beginning of the season although the latter did cause a bit of trouble. The last thing anyone wants is to start off over something too difficult.
Re moving people into an open intro that's trickier unless you go into something like three wins and you're in the open as reaching a certain number of points could get people out with loads of lower placings rather than a few top three. It is difficult though, my horse naturally does a good dressage, he's six ( I bought him as a 4 yr old) and has done his first two events this season for a 2nd and a 3rd:D:D but he's careful sj and I have just cantered round as far as my lack of brakes let me and he covers the ground. He will prob do one more intro and then move up to pre novice but he's a youngster and I am an amateur rider-the riding fits round my job. You are always going to come up against pros whatever level you ride it- as you say there are pro intro riders and you're always up against them at pre-nov and above but I think that is the fab and I'd rather compete against them and hopefully beat them than be in a separate sections although to be fair the rosettes he has won have been a bonus-I was thrilled with him and it wouldn't have mattered were he had come
 
Generally top placings have to have a sub 30 dressage.

I feel that the SJ should look to achieve 25-30% clears and the XC should have tricky fences with time consuming alternatives so the more inexperienced get time faults rather than eliminations. Obviously you still need questions but fences that habitually eliminate should have sensible alternatives.
 
I think that BE90 can be but even then it depends on the individual course. Though after my season BE100 last year with a pony that really doesn't do dressage we were often in the top 15 despite time faults as she was quite reliable SJing and XC so I don't think that BE100 is a dressage competition but again it does depend on the individual event.
 
Thistle said:
Generally top placings have to have a sub 30 dressage.

I feel that the SJ should look to achieve 25-30% clears and the XC should have tricky fences with time consuming alternatives so the more inexperienced get time faults rather than eliminations. Obviously you still need questions but fences that habitually eliminate should have sensible alternatives.
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this is a good idea thistle. if you go and watch a BS british novice there will be lots of people having poles etc because they are usually more technical- having dog legs and clever placing of certain jumps. would it not be better for BE SJing courses to be slightly more technical than the usual figure of 8? that way the jumping would become more influentual?

i do agree with milltiger tho that i don't think that you can really make the XC much moretechnical. i think that some XCs are very technical (in terms of use of the terrain, skinnies, offset doubles) for this level, bearing in mind inexperienced horses and riders... yes lannerch there was a little ditch at 3 yesterday at stafford.

it is frustrating when you are up against the BE90 riders who will never ever move up a level, despite winning every year for 5 years! i'm not saying that they should have to move up- could be lots of good reasons (inc safety ones) for not doing so- but i do think that open sections would be a good idea. it happens at BD prelim and BS British novice so why not the lowest levels of eventing? if they were put it open sections then they can still compete at that level and, if anything, will have to raise game even more as all the super good people will be in those sections?
 
diggerbez said:
this is a good idea thistle. if you go and watch a BS british novice there will be lots of people having poles etc because they are usually more technical- having dog legs and clever placing of certain jumps. would it not be better for BE SJing courses to be slightly more technical than the usual figure of 8? that way the jumping would become more influentual?
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But that's why I don't go in for pure SJ on a young/inexperienced horse and why I also have a pathological loathing of unaffiliated having had some very interesting experiences of overly technical courses for the height/level. It's only fair that at the lower levels the course is flowing and inviting.

Trying to get a happy medium at BE90 is pretty much impossible as for an experienced combo the double clear is pretty much guaranteed (bar an unlucky pole) and the dressage is very basic. But it's not fair to those who are starting out on inexperienced horses to make the jumping more technical.

Basically there are two group who compete at BE90 - those using it as a training ground with amibitions to get to N and beyond. And those who will never move beyond that level. Trying to satisfy both groups is nigh on impossible really. I'm very much against making the jumping more technical at BE100 and below as that won't encourage bold riding or be fair to youngsters who have to start somewhere.
 
diggerbez said:
this is a good idea thistle. if you go and watch a BS british novice there will be lots of people having poles etc because they are usually more technical- having dog legs and clever placing of certain jumps. would it not be better for BE SJing courses to be slightly more technical than the usual figure of 8? that way the jumping would become more influentual?QUOTE]

The influence of the show jumping should be less than 5%. If you talk to any show jumping judges at event they will say that the standard of riding and jumping is quite low. The courses at the low levels should be straight forward to encourage young horses and green riders to stay in a rhythm and keep good balance. Making more difficult lines leads to ugly sights of horses being pulled around and losing confidence and discourage forward riding.
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Officiate at BE events and would agree that Dressage has become a very important phase at all levels IF you have a horse that can jump! Have seen people with outstanding dressage scores who have blown it in SJ or XC phases.

You need a good Dressage to win, but both rider and horse need the confidence and intelligence to not mess up in other phases.
 
I agree that the events at the lower levels should be straight forward - both sj and xc - designed to 'encourage' and give confidence to the 'young and inexperienced' horse as well as first timers, novice combinations ... .

If 'experienced' combinations wish to stay at a level then clearly they are happy with the technicality and challenge that it provides. By making it more technical you will only push these riders down a level.

Why should those wishing to use it to educate their horses lose out??

By introducing prenovice then the technicality of the novice course increased (ref Tina Cooks H&H) and likewise the introduction of intro led to more technical pre novice courses. It has to stop somewhere or we really will end up with poles on the ground just to ensure there are some nice straightforward flowing courses!!!

I was at Stafford yesterday and thought the course - both sj and XC - were excellent confidence givers.
 
We were at Stafford yesteray - and although our horse had a couple of fences down in the SJ and went clear in the SC (BE90) thought the courses were ideal for this level. Our horses first BE event, so wil be using BE90 classes as education - big difference to an unaff. ODE, SJ was next to the trade stands, and our horse didn't know where to look, which took eye off the fences in SJ - only by going to these events will he learn.
 
The only thing that will win you a BE event is good dressage - from BE80 to the Olympics. You have to be really lucky to get placed with a bad dressage score. After dressage I think it's then SJ with XC the least important.
 
i know what people are saying re. making the sjing nice and inviting... but... round here most people do some BS novices before going BE and so are quite capable of jumping a slightly more technical course...maybe thats just something peculiar to my part of the world? if you think that British Novice classes are aimed at novice horses (including 4 year olds) then i don't see why a course of that technicality would cause such a huge problem at BE intro level? i'm not saying to make it impossible at all...but having to ride the odd dog leg or to jump planks after a spread that has opened you up a bit would surely encourage better riding in the long run? as i see it now...people often scrape a clear in the SJing by the skin of their teeth (as a few of you have said the standard of some rounds is questionable) and so don't think they need to go home and practice- if they were having faults consistently then they might do something about it?
i also think that if you can ride an offset double on the XC or a skinny (both of which you'll get XC at intro)- why can't you ride a dog leg in the SJ?

i just can't help but feel that the SJing does become more influential as you progress up the levels and so its better grounding for people to do their homework lower down the levels?
 
Sadly just because there is more technicality doesn't mean people systematically train more until they are ready. The competition is there so they go. Provided they can jump the height required, the technicality doesn't seem to matter. That is why so many people say they don't like dressage or don't like show jumping - they are not fully prepared. It amazes me how many people say to their instructors "I have to do reinback, simple change, travers, etc in my test next week and he hasn't done it before. Can we do it today?".
If you are finding the questions too easy at BE90, then go up a level. The lowest level should be simple to get horses going. When they first go out they can be a little overawed by the situation and become less rideable so going show jumping is a good idea although indoor and outdoor are poles apart. At an event though, the horse has a lot more to think about and look at so it helps if he is trained to a level higher than the competition.
 
diggerbez said:
i also think that if you can ride an offset double on the XC or a skinny (both of which you'll get XC at intro)- why can't you ride a dog leg in the SJ?
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Thing is those two are poles apart. off set doubles at intro are often numbered separately so you can circle in between without penalty and generally later in the course when the horse should hopefully have got into a rhythm and be thinking forwards so technicality becomes less of an issue than attacking it cold so to speak.

I think the days of doing a mediocre dressage and relying on your jumping to pull you up are long gone at all levels right up to 4* sadly, given the original focus used to be on the cross country and the showjumping was simply a test after the xc to show the horse was still sound, sane and not exhausted! Hence the move towards the bigger moving warmblood and less emphasis on a pure TB now that the endurance factor has been reduced.
 
I also think there are two groups of people in Intro - Group 1 is those introducing young horses and/or young riders into the sport, and Group 2 is those who are experienced combinations wanting safe conditions and have no plans to ever move out of the class.

Maybe a Young horse class in Intro is needed (ie. 4 and 5 year olds) so they have a separate section just for them, although usually the one's on young horses don't care about placings as using the event as experience :)
 
only_me said:
I also think there are two groups of people in Intro - Group 1 is those introducing young horses and/or young riders into the sport, and Group 2 is those who are experienced combinations wanting safe conditions and have no plans to ever move out of the class.

Maybe a Young horse class in Intro is needed (ie. 4 and 5 year olds) so they have a separate section just for them, although usually the one's on young horses don't care about placings as using the event as experience :)
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But what about those who have an older but green horse? I guess there is no simple answer! And don't, please anyone, say unaffil/RC. Having experienced some of the more, um, "special" course designing skills that unaffil has to offer I don't personally see this as a particularly viable alternative.
 
This problem tends not to exist from June onwards as all the pros horses are going novice or doing YH classes or they are concentrating on the big guns so the green horses get a break.

Personally I think the courses are pitched just right as an ambitious amateur. I rarely do more than 4 intros (depending on the horse) and then move on for a season at PN with the following season doing PN/N. I would be really peed off to enter an intro to find myself having to continuously set the horse up and break its rhythm when actually I am trying to educate it for the next levels with staying straight and going forwards.

As for the Sjing - why make it more technical? Its all about getting 3 phases right not being good at just one and getting away with it at 2 phases?

Dressage is not hard its all about showmanship and having all the basics correct. A good test will get the marks it deserves and though having a flashy horse will help if that flashy horse is not consistent in the contact or you are not riding it as well as it could be then you will lose marks. One of the things you have not argued for is a higher dressage level! BE tests are pretty simple!!
 
Ditto all the above, & it's why we're about to go PN, my horse started eventing last season at 13, got E twice last season (both for very green baby reasons) but his XC is getting good & consistent, his SJ still needs work, (generally have a pole when he gets cocky) and his dressage is fairly ropey, but improving all the time, but he's never going get a 21 dressage, ever, so at Intro, although I've always had a pole, our dressage is always going to leave us outside the placings, which has lead me to the decision to step up to PN, & we can improve our SJ & dressage as we go, if i waited to get a placing at Intro i might as well go home now!

In my mind those people who stay at intro for season after season, are those who previously did RC, but because the quality of RC is generally so poor, it's understandable for them to stick at low level BE, those of us who want to progress will progress regardless, (assuming we don't keep falling off or getting E!!)

Personally the actual result i get is far less important than the feeling i get from my horse, if he skips XC without blinking, feels balanced & is listening in the SJ, & does a consisent dressage i'm happy, i've had days when a good overall score has left me 12th, & the same score has left me in the mid 20's, a lot depends on who else is in the section & how the judges are marking.

it's as much a competition against myself as a competition against everyone else
 
I think at Intro as well you come up against the professional ponies that can do a very flashy little test and for whom a 20 by 40 arena gives masses of space whereas seems tiny on a big young horse!
There is also very little to do in an Intro test which does not give my own horse enough to think about and keep him busy - we've been doing Novice BD all winter and I had forgotten just how little was in an Intro test! I think a certain type of horse or pony does well in an Intro test and that is not necessarily a horse that will shine at other levels.
I thought Stafford was a lovely first time out event and not particularly tough but a great early season run with some different questions in both the 90 and 100. In my section only 10 points separated the top 20 placings and where 34 would have had you 7th 38 was 20th. I don't think I have seen such a close finish in a section before but think that is the exception rather than the norm
 
DarkHorseB said:
I think at Intro as well you come up against the professional ponies that can do a very flashy little test and for whom a 20 by 40 arena gives masses of space whereas seems tiny on a big young horse!
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Very very true-I'd love to see the option of 20x60 for the intro and pre novice but then that's probably because I find I can barely ride forward in a short arena on my youngster as I'm down the long side before I've blinked- (on the little TB's I've had in the past I've never noticed how small a 20x40 is!:eek:)
 
LEC- i actually do think that a slightly harder dressage test would be a good idea...more like a hard prelim - the current tests are ridiculously boring :rolleyes:

i do agree that you should be good at dressage and agree that the dressage should be influential at all levels...but it just often seems to me that its only the dressage that matters, which seems a bit wrong when its a 3 discipline competition...but do take what oldvic is saying about that people probably wouldn't put more practice in anyways even if it was harder... :rolleyes: stupid people :p
 
diggerbez said:
LEC- i actually do think that a slightly harder dressage test would be a good idea...more like a hard prelim - the current tests are ridiculously boring :rolleyes:
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Completely agree! The Intro tests are definitely easier than ANY BD prelim test I have done! For a fit horse who knows that the 2 more exciting phases are to follow there is not enough to engage the brain!!
 
i'd also like to see a slightly harder dressage test, or at least a few more movements, on a bad day there just isn't enough chance to make a bad test good (if that makes sense), something that gives green horses a chance, but also makes it a bit more of a test.

i think it's always going to be a challenge to get the lower levels catering for every type of combination, but it does inspire me to pull my finger out and progress up the levels!
 
Im one of those who competes at BE90 and has no desire to move up! My coloured boy in my sig is not a natural athlete although he tries his heart out for me. He struggles with the time XC but he is well schooled and normally gets a dress score in the high 20s or low 30s. By getting good dressage scores it allows for the couple of time faults i usually get XC.
Last year he got double clears in all his intros and finished in the top 10 in all but one of them. Although i have done BE100 on the bay in my sig, i will never ask my coloured to do it as i would hate to have to push him faster XC and risk an accident.
He is happy at this level and we enjoy ourselves.
If i was asked to compete in open intros it wouldnt really bother me. I would rather that than they brought out a rule saying i had to move up to BE100.
 
Having competed a little at intro/PN level BE but being more of a BSer all I can say is the SJ bit of the ODE is the dullest bit. I don't understand how people can consider can going xc when they cannot get round an intro SJ course. I'm not talking about making them higher, but just more interesting. This would also keep those not wanting to move up a little more interested, without scaring off any young ones imho :)

I know I'm coming from a BS point of view, but there it is :)
 
I do think dressage is important but as someone already mentioned a good dressage test isnt it all you need, you must complete the other phases too!

My late mare was an extremely careful sjer - it held us back as she over jumped and scared herself ALOT! throw in jumping sj on grass and she quite literally had a breakdown twice, at 2ft 6 you may get away with this (with her clearing over 3ft6! i have pics to prove it) however at 3ft she got quite anxious - happy to jump 3ft6 on a surface! She also was a fabulous dressage and xc horse, strangely confident xc horse for being so nervous to sj, i think poles moving upset her as at first BS show she bolted when another horse hit a fence!

So despite good dressage mark we were eliminated at our first two intros in the sj, she wasnt young either - simply green and a 9yo exracer.

However if i hadnt lost her i would of continued to try and progress as far as we could - this might of never been above intro due to her sj issues. Very tricky to argue about who should get to ride in which sections as lot of people have valid reasons not to move up and to be the best at the level they compete. Some call it pot hunting others simply doing their best at a hobby they love and supporting their sport. Surely though these intros pros actually make us all work harder for our first outings or simply a good marker to how our youngsters are fairing in the competition field. I know my first BE with youngster will be just a case of taking part on my boy and seeing how we get on :)
 
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