Lungeing with a Chambon correctly

Horsekaren

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 March 2017
Messages
1,300
Visit site
I purchased a chambon after much deliberation and it has been sitting in my tack room for a month as i'm a bit apprehensive of using it.
I have decided tonight is the night i am going to give it a go. I posted a while a go about lungeing aids and i know there are a lot of mixed reviews. I have previously only lunged in side reins and simply a bridle. With the side reins he looks so pinned into place, he looks smart but i cant help but think its forced. If i just have the bridle on he will trot lovely and listen to my commands but always with his nose out poking thus being very hollow. The only time he ever lowers his head is if he is going over a bit of poo that he wants to sniff :(

I have settled on a chambon as from my understanding they encourage the horse to stretch down and then im hoping i can take it away and he will continue the stretching down habit in his bridle. Im then hoping if we use this once/ twice a week he will build those muscles and might be a little more willing when i ask him to lift his back when im on board.

Waffle over .... basically having never used one before i am after a bit of advise, how loose, how long for ect.
Is this a good method to build top line?
 

Caol Ila

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2012
Messages
8,229
Location
Glasgow
Visit site
The only time I have ever used a chambone was when I was under the supervision of a trainer in a lesson. Both myself and the horse were struggling to coordinate the forward, off the leg, with giving to the hand. I could get the horse to do one or the other, but not both. Looking back, I think the trainer did this as a training aid for me, not the horse. I was about 14 and very green at dressage. A better rider probably could have achieved this without the chambone, as indeed I did with that horse a few years later.

Keep in mind that the chambone works off of leverage and pole pressure. It won't be anything like what a rider does with their hands. Horses can learn to give to those aids (because they don't have a choice) but not improve much without the aid.

What turned things around for that mare's (and my own) understanding was working with a Western trainer. The dressage trainers we had would send the horse forward into the hand, with the aim that the impulsion generated from behind will cause the horse to soften its jaw and lower its head. This works for many horses but it didn't work for that one. The more energy you created, the more she would stiffen and brace in her head and neck, and the more contact you rode with, the more she'd drop behind the leg because as far as she was concerned, the idiot human was riding with the handbrake on. She was not a young horse and had learned these habits from humans who had her long before me. The Western trainer started by asking the horse to soften while standing still. Take contact and as soon as the horse gives its jaw, drop the rein and pat it like it just won a Grand Prix test. Once it understands what you want, it softens as soon as you lightly touch the rein. Then you do it in walk, then trot, and so on. Giving every. single. time. the horse softens. It's more 'front to back' than how a lot of dressage trainers do it, but I'd argue that it works well because it separates the aids and makes it easier for the horse to understand each element of what you want him to do (go forward, give to the bit).
 
Last edited:

little_critter

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 June 2009
Messages
6,692
Visit site
The only time I have ever used a chambone was when I was under the supervision of a trainer in a lesson. Both myself and the horse were struggling to coordinate the forward, off the leg, with giving to the hand. I could get the horse to do one or the other, but not both. Looking back, I think the trainer did this as a training aid for me, not the horse. I was about 14 and very green at dressage. A better rider probably could have achieved this without the chambone, as indeed I did with that horse a few years later.

Keep in mind that the chambone works off of leverage and pole pressure. It won't be anything like what a rider does with their hands. Horses can learn to give to those aids (because they don't have a choice) but not improve much without the aid.

What turned things around for that mare's (and my own) understanding was working with a Western trainer. The dressage trainers we had would send the horse forward into the hand, with the aim that the impulsion generated from behind will cause the horse to soften its jaw and lower its head. This works for many horses but it didn't work for that one. The more energy you created, the more she would stiffen and brace in her head and neck, and the more contact you rode with, the more she'd drop behind the leg because as far as she was concerned, the idiot human was riding with the handbrake on. She was not a young horse and had learned these habits from humans who had her long before me. The Western trainer started by asking the horse to soften while standing still. Take contact and as soon as the horse gives its jaw, drop the rein and pat it like it just won a Grand Prix test. Once it understands what you want, it softens as soon as you lightly touch the rein. Then you do it in walk, then trot, and so on. Giving every. single. time. the horse softens. It's more 'front to back' than how a lot of dressage trainers do it, but I'd argue that it works well because it separates the aids and makes it easier for the horse to understand each element of what you want him to do (go forward, give to the bit).

Are you saying you rode with a chambon on the horse?
I thought they were only for lunging, I don't think I'd be happy riding with one.
 

Horsekaren

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 March 2017
Messages
1,300
Visit site
The only time I have ever used a chambone was when I was under the supervision of a trainer in a lesson. Both myself and the horse were struggling to coordinate the forward, off the leg, with giving to the hand. I could get the horse to do one or the other, but not both. Looking back, I think the trainer did this as a training aid for me, not the horse. I was about 14 and very green at dressage. A better rider probably could have achieved this without the chambone, as indeed I did with that horse a few years later.

Keep in mind that the chambone works off of leverage and pole pressure. It won't be anything like what a rider does with their hands. Horses can learn to give to those aids (because they don't have a choice) but not improve much without the aid.

What turned things around for that mare's (and my own) understanding was working with a Western trainer. The dressage trainers we had would send the horse forward into the hand, with the aim that the impulsion generated from behind will cause the horse to soften its jaw and lower its head. This works for many horses but it didn't work for that one. The more energy you created, the more she would stiffen and brace in her head and neck, and the more contact you rode with, the more she'd drop behind the leg because as far as she was concerned, the idiot human was riding with the handbrake on. She was not a young horse and had learned these habits from humans who had her long before me. The Western trainer started by asking the horse to soften while standing still. Take contact and as soon as the horse gives its jaw, drop the rein and pat it like it just won a Grand Prix test. Once it understands what you want, it softens as soon as you lightly touch the rein. Then you do it in walk, then trot, and so on. Giving every. single. time. the horse softens. It's more 'front to back' than how a lot of dressage trainers do it, but I'd argue that it works well because it separates the aids and makes it easier for the horse to understand each element of what you want him to do (go forward, give to the bit).

That's very interesting, i wouldn't think to put western and contact together but how you have explained it makes sense.
My horse will only come down when he is really working hard on bending ect in trot or in walk he does it nicely. I have never managed to hold the contact from walk to trot as he head just goes strait up and i dont want to fight his mouth. Its not just me, his old owner was the same, a few much better people that have ridden him cant quiet get him either. the only time ive seen him work in an prolonged outline was with a professional rider on his back who really pushed him, he did throw a few paddy's but he did get it... unfortunately for me i am not a professional :p

My thinking is with a lunge aid that encourages him down to stretch will help him understand how he can use his body and then im hoping it might help with ridden work. I see a lot of the horses on the yard trot with their heads low in the field of their own free will :eek: mine only puts his head down to eat or itch his leg. I'm not gonna lie the itching of the leg and head tossing is helping a bit because i can hold him for a few seconds in between whilst keeping my hands light so i go with him.
i know there is no magical fixes but if i can build those muscles it may help :) plus i don't want him to injure his back being hollow all the time.
 

wingedhorse

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 November 2005
Messages
806
Visit site
The most benefit would be if you had a lesson from a good instructor in how to work horse most effectively for his current way of going on the lunge.
 

Caol Ila

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2012
Messages
8,229
Location
Glasgow
Visit site
The most benefit would be if you had a lesson from a good instructor in how to work horse most effectively for his current way of going on the lunge.

This. The horse won't hurt his back if he's going around in a relaxed manner holding his head where it's comfortable. If the horse is bracing and hollowing his back away from the rider that's a different problem. Lots of horses have long careers never going into a dressage frame. Asking a horse, especially one not built for it, to come into a dressage outline is like asking it to do yoga. It's hard. Holding the outline through a transition is even harder. Trouble with the chambone is that it puts the horse between a rock and a hard place. He can either deal with lots of pressure on his poll and mouth, or he can hold a position that's really difficult for him. It's kind of lose-lose from his perspective. A tactful rider, on the other hand, can give the horse a break and let him carry himself in an easy neutral position between moments of asking him to hold an outline.
 
Last edited:

Horsekaren

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 March 2017
Messages
1,300
Visit site
Didn’t try the chambon in the end just went with a bungee. Was interesting as it didn’t pin him but it did apply pressure when he attempted to stick his head up. He was so focused and listening, happy to go forward and was stretching down lots. Didn’t go for long ao very gentle.
A big success much nicer than pinning him in with the side reins.
I know some horses just aren’t built for it but I know he has it, the fact we hold a nice outline and contact in walk tells me it’s there it’s just building on it. By no means do I want to force him I’m just looking to encourage :)
 

albeg

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 June 2011
Messages
3,718
Location
Ireland
Visit site
What turned things around for that mare's (and my own) understanding was working with a Western trainer. The dressage trainers we had would send the horse forward into the hand, with the aim that the impulsion generated from behind will cause the horse to soften its jaw and lower its head. This works for many horses but it didn't work for that one. The more energy you created, the more she would stiffen and brace in her head and neck, and the more contact you rode with, the more she'd drop behind the leg because as far as she was concerned, the idiot human was riding with the handbrake on. She was not a young horse and had learned these habits from humans who had her long before me. The Western trainer started by asking the horse to soften while standing still. Take contact and as soon as the horse gives its jaw, drop the rein and pat it like it just won a Grand Prix test. Once it understands what you want, it softens as soon as you lightly touch the rein. Then you do it in walk, then trot, and so on. Giving every. single. time. the horse softens. It's more 'front to back' than how a lot of dressage trainers do it, but I'd argue that it works well because it separates the aids and makes it easier for the horse to understand each element of what you want him to do (go forward, give to the bit).

This was what worked for my (16yo) gelding too (with a dressage trainer). Showed him what was meant by the aid and it turned him around - went from giraffe pony to now doing reasonably well at prelim dressage. Long reining/lungeing off two reins also helped him far more than the chambon did - I could release once he softened.
 

Horsekaren

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 March 2017
Messages
1,300
Visit site
This is how he went, i think he was relaxing at some points? i know he is fighting it at points but it was his first go.
He seems ever so focused and willing. I really like how it does release when he stretches down but i'm unsure about the movement on the bit :/




[video=youtube_share;pB3EBN4u0NQ]https://youtu.be/pB3EBN4u0NQ[/video]
 

Caol Ila

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2012
Messages
8,229
Location
Glasgow
Visit site
He looks easy and willing. But of he were my horse I'd lose the side reins and get him working forward in the trot. He's shuffling around like he's going to a funeral and to get him to lift his back he needs to be pushing from behind and moving with more energy. He looks like he's backing off the side reins. I think he's the sort that if he feels too much resistance or that something is too hard, he'll tune out and not bother. I have one. She is never scary but if she feels like the rider is being unreasonable, it's like she sits down with her cup of tea and the Guardian and says, "Get back to me when you calm down, love."

So get him moving forward in trot and don't worry about where he is putting his head. Of course there is a balance between rushing around like a lunatic and plodding. You want him nice and energetic, in an easy rhythm, but not manic. In the meantime continue to develop the connection in walk as that's obviously a lot easier for him.
 
Top