Making excuses...

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AshTay

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I've previously (last year) posted on here about my gelding, now 7, welsh D x TB.
I bought him March 2011 and all was going well until he bolted (or simply b*ggered off..?) with my friend on a hack and then did it to me while schooling in a paddock, put me in A&E and knocked my confidence. The issue was that although he's a spooky monster, when he goes there's little to no warning (i.e. he can jump out of his skin at the sight of a crisp packet but not take off, yet he can suddenly go into warp speed without any obvious trigger).
So I had the vet out. Nothing obvious - weak muscles in back but no obvious pain so it was decided to give him the winter off and start again properly in spring and I worked with him on the ground and his confidence grew no end and by spring he was much better to handle on the ground.
So in spring I started working with him again on the ground and spent most of the summer walking him in hand, long reining and lunging. He had mounting issues (he'd come OVER the mounting block to avoid being mounted!) but I took everything really slowly and can now get on him on my own with no trouble. We'd do a maximum of 20 mins walk and trot a week and I was happy with that. Dark nights set in so I can't work him in the week now but was still sitting on him for 20 mins on a weekend doing walk and trot (after 5 minutes on the lunge to warm him up).
A week last friday I rode him and he was the best he'd been, even really realxing down in trot which was an achievement.
But on Sunday - it was like the old horse was back!! He freaked a bit when my OH moved the mounting block, fair enough. He was fine in walk once he'd settled again. But when I tried to trot he went all tense and bunched up and "scamper-y"!! Totally different to a week previous (and in fact totally different to any of the other times I've riiden him this year). I'm not asking much of him - really only riding him so that he doesn't forget he's got a job and so getting on him again doesn't feel like a big issue to face next spring when the light evenings return. I'm fairly confident with him now but it's a fine line and so I went back to walk and stayed in walk and we did some circles and halts and left it there.

So what's changed...? His field - in between the good ride and the bad ride he's moved fields and has more grass (he's carrying weight well now - he was scrawny this time last year). There's more stones in the new field and he has come in with some in his feet so maybe he's bruised (he has bruised his foot before and had to be boxrested)? But he trotted fine on the lunge before I got on him (I'm 9stone7) and I'm not seeing any sensitivity or lameness.

My short term plan is to just get on him again as normal next weekend and see how he is. He has seen a physio last year who intially found some back pain from previous rider/saddle combination but this went away. She did also mention that he might have had a sacroilliac strain in the past! Significant? He passed a vetting in March 2011. His saddle was fitted last year and is due a check but why the sudden reaction if it's that given that he gets such light work? Teeth checked regularly and recently.

Thanks to anyone who has managed to read all this. I'd value hearing what others would do in my situation.
 
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Maybe doing more with him would. I find that when my confidence gets knocked my horse just takes the mick with me so the less and do and the owrse it gets. So she has always been a bit girthy and it got to the point where she was doing mini rears etc and was just about to call out the back specialist when two people on diff days did her up and she stood as quiet as a mouse for them. Did the same the other day. I tried to pick out her feet and she was a right pain but trimmer came and she stood the whole time with no problems. She knows when Im not sure of something and plays on it. Maybe hes doing the same. Perhaps you could get an experienced person come along side you both to build your confidence in each other and get some lessons on the go. I bety if an experienced trainer got on him hed be totally different.
 
Also this might sound totally stupid but try him in a bitless bridle. Ive known a few people who have had bolters and they put them in a bitless and they change. My girl is beter in one to as she sometimes tends to turn on her heal and try to canter home but I can stop her straight away in a bitless but takes a while in a normal bridle.
 
hi he sounds very typical of D's they can be very nervy silly horses ,you could try a really good magnesium supplement to calm the nerves and brewers yeast to calm the stomach,i found that made a big difference to mine and he was a loon. 7 is still very young and immature with D's and they can take a long time to get with the program:)
 
I see your point but the bizarre thing is that when I first started getting on him again this year I was a nervous wreck so I would have expected him to have taken the mick then. If he'd done to me what he did on Sunday two months ago I'd have gone to jelly and got off but it didn't actually phase me on Sunday - I was more just disappointed because I thought we'd worked past that and he'd turned a corner.
But I will be starting up lessons again with my instructor in the next few weeks so if he is taking the mick she will spot it and we'll sort it :)
 
Me again- could it be diet related? I found my girl was quite jumpy and on edge until I put her on magnesium.

There Im done I wont say anything else now lol
 
claribella said:
Also this might sound totally stupid but try him in a bitless bridle. Ive known a few people who have had bolters and they put them in a bitless and they change. My girl is beter in one to as she sometimes tends to turn on her heal and try to canter home but I can stop her straight away in a bitless but takes a while in a normal bridle.
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Hmm...I've thought about this because he does mouth the bit a lot (in a french link snaffle).

archiepoo said:
hi he sounds very typical of D's they can be very nervy silly horses ,you could try a really good magnesium supplement to calm the nerves and brewers yeast to calm the stomach,i found that made a big difference to mine and he was a loon. 7 is still very young and immature with D's and they can take a long time to get with the program:)
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I've just started him on a calmer (Equistro Equiliser) in light of what happened on Sunday - I had some left over from my mare's boxrest so thought I may aswell use it! He's on TopSpec Cool Condition cubes, oil, Bailey's lo cal (contains yeasacc?) and a sprinkling of hifi-lite.
I was going to ask if maybe the TB part of him should level out the D but .....lol!
 
claribella said:
Me again- could it be diet related? I found my girl was quite jumpy and on edge until I put her on magnesium.

There Im done I wont say anything else now lol
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Please say more!!! I'm open to suggestions. The general opinion of those around me after his behaviour last year was that he's "not right in the head" and I mostly agreed but he's changed so much that I don't want to give up on him. And I LOVE riding him (when he's good :))!!
 
does he actually need any hard feed? my D;s were all like barrels just on haylage unless they were living out and it was freezing and then they got a bit, it will make a difference if he could do without-could you just give a bit of chaff and 1/4 scoop of beet to have his supplements in? even if its for a couple of weeks for you to see if theres a difference?
 
Ok then I will say even more. Perhaps try some groundwork with him like the NH groundwork. You said that you spent a lot of time on the ground with him so it sounds like you have the patience for that sort of thing. It does help the horse to trust you. We were doing it all the time at one point and its something I always go back to because my mare knows where she stands. I notice a big diff in her when I take a break from doing it in both how well she handles on the ground and being ridden.
 
claribella said:
Me again- could it be diet related? I found my girl was quite jumpy and on edge until I put her on magnesium.

There Im done I wont say anything else now lol
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archiepoo said:
does he actually need any hard feed? my D;s were all like barrels just on haylage unless they were living out and it was freezing and then they got a bit, it will make a difference if he could do without-could you just give a bit of chaff and 1/4 scoop of beet to have his supplements in? even if its for a couple of weeks for you to see if theres a difference?
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Yes he does. He's a very poor doer (the TB half!) and it's taken a year to get some weight on him. I've reduced his hardfeed slightly because he's got more grass (and it's grass that really puts the weight on him) but the good grass won't last all winter and he lives out so needs the feed. I've tried to get him on a fibre-only (as much as possible) diet and he looks really well on it (a little too well maybe but at this time of year I'm not too worried...).
 
Thats a point what does he eat. Anything like chaff is normally quite high in sugars.

I best go and start tea but I really hope you manage to get some great advice on here and things work out for you and him:) The hard ones always turn out to be the best and the bond you have is second to none because of all the time and effort youve put in. Good luck:)
 
claribella said:
Ok then I will say even more. Perhaps try some groundwork with him like the NH groundwork. You said that you spent a lot of time on the ground with him so it sounds like you have the patience for that sort of thing. It does help the horse to trust you. We were doing it all the time at one point and its something I always go back to because my mare knows where she stands. I notice a big diff in her when I take a break from doing it in both how well she handles on the ground and being ridden.
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I'm still doing that although not as much as I would like to due to dark nights. I did clicker training with him to get him over a mortal fear of all things plastic and that worked perfectly and every now and then I do it again to remind him. Currently, I do ground work one weekend day (usually a bit of lunging/long-reining over poles and then some moving about and daft things like practising trotting up in hand because he didn't "get" that and mounting block exercises without actually mounting). I don't freeschool him because I tried once and he looked like he was going to roll and the last thing I need is for him to associate the school with a good roll!! lol!! Thanks to a year of groundwork and NH-style stuff, the lungewhip is no longer scary enough to stop him from rolling, lol!!!
 
Ulcers and gut issues spring to mind especially with the weight issues. The change of grazing could have irritated his gut.

Another biggie to rule out is kissing spine. Sorry to mention stuff like this.

ps. Yes, also have a review of his diet.
 
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claribella said:
Thats a point what does he eat. Anything like chaff is normally quite high in sugars.

I best go and start tea but I really hope you manage to get some great advice on here and things work out for you and him:) The hard ones always turn out to be the best and the bond you have is second to none because of all the time and effort youve put in. Good luck:)
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Thank you for your advice!!!! He is rather gorgeous and such a lovely character that even if I could never ride him again I'd still keep him because I just love having him!
He's on hifi-lite which is recommended for lami horses so should be low in sugar? But it's only a sprinkling to make it more "chewy". Forgot to mention the speedibeet too!
 
amandap said:
Ulcers and gut issues spring to mind especially with the weight issues. The change of grazing could have irritated his gut.

Another biggie to rule out is kissing spine. Sorry to mention stuff like this.
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It needs to be mentioned! We suspected ulcers last year as he's also quite herringbone/tucked-up in appearance. He had a weeks course of coligone and was no different and vet wasn't keen to stress him out with scoping without more evidence. That was another reason for the currrent diet. But I guess trotting could swish things up and be painful. He doesn't exhibit any other signs and he's long backed so the tucked-up appearance is possbly related to that. He doesn't look tuckedup at present but he's verging on being fat!!!

Kissing spine - neither the physio nor vet felt this was likely but I think it's possible. If the behaviour persists then I will definitely be pushing for further investigation with this in mind.
 
I have found my Welsh D is worse when not being ridden everyday, on the ground and whilst ridden. He gets Bolshevik, grumpy and fizzy when only being ridden a few times a week. It sounds as though you are a bit scared riding him. Try working him a but harder and see how it goes.
 
FreddiesGal said:
I have found my Welsh D is worse when not being ridden everyday, on the ground and whilst ridden. He gets Bolshevik, grumpy and fizzy when only being ridden a few times a week. It sounds as though you are a bit scared riding him. Try working him a but harder and see how it goes.
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FreddiesGal said:
Bolshy not Bolshevik lol, stupid phone!
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lol!
My old pony was like that but I honestly don't think that's the issue here. I've only been riding him once a week for the last 2 months and he's been fine! He's still very good to handle on the ground, on the lunge and ridden in walk. It was just trot (his transitions into trot are lovely, I only need to think trot and he goes but usually he'd be very settled but Sunday he was totally different). I'm thinking he is/was uncomfortable somewhere and if the behaviour persists I'll be getting the vet out and raising some of the issues mentioned here.
Thanks everyone for the input.
 
amymay said:
Sounds like he needs a job to do. Why are you only doing 20 mins of walk and trot a week with him.

Work him.
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Because I work full time and we don't have any lights. Hopefully we're getting some but at the moment I can't. As I said - I'm only riding him at all so that come spring (or lights, whichever), we're not faced with a "getting on him for the first time in 3 months" scenario.
 
AshTay said:
The general opinion of those around me after his behaviour last year was that he's "not right in the head"
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Not many welshies are tbf. ;) :p

Like Amymay said, more work. Lots to do and lots to think about. I bet he's cracking once his mind's on a job.

ETA, Just read your other post OP. IIWY I'd just not bother then until the light's on your side and you can get stuck into working him regularly. All or nothing, and if you want to, pay a pro to do the getting on after three months.
 
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I suspect it's his diet and the change in field unsettled things further. My tb was a nervy poor doer. Finally worked out that cereal, sugars and alfalfa all send him loopy. Now he has kwikbeet and micronised linseed plus pro hoof and yeasacc to support digestion he's like a new horse. Fantastic condition, maintains his weight and has chilled right out under saddle. I took him off sugar and cereal early on, but took a lot longer to realise the alfalfa in the chaff was causing spookiness
 
Flame_ said:
ETA, Just read your other post OP. IIWY I'd just not bother then until the light's on your side and you can get stuck into working him regularly. All or nothing, and if you want to, pay a pro to do the getting on after three months.
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I see your point but this routine has suited for the last two months. We had to stop work quite suddenly just before the clocks went back as he had an abscess and he was no different to handle on the ground when he wasn't being worked (and he went from 5 days a week work to nothing). Another thought was that without the regular work he's just not strong enough through his back to support a rider.

ghostie said:
I suspect it's his diet and the change in field unsettled things further. My tb was a nervy poor doer. Finally worked out that cereal, sugars and alfalfa all send him loopy. Now he has kwikbeet and micronised linseed plus pro hoof and yeasacc to support digestion he's like a new horse. Fantastic condition, maintains his weight and has chilled right out under saddle. I took him off sugar and cereal early on, but took a lot longer to realise the alfalfa in the chaff was causing spookiness
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...but you might have a point here. He only gets a light sprinkling of the alfalfa chaff (not even sure why I bother actually) so I'll cut that out completely. The Top Spec Cool Condition cubes are supposed to be low starch and low sugar and cereal-free but do they contain alfalfa???? What about the Spillers Slow Release (recommended to me at YHL but not tried).
 
I've got a Welshie and I agree with those that suggest he needs more work. Mine is better the more you push her and regular riding. They are intelligent monkeys :D

I struggle with her through the winter as she doesn't get ridden much and each Spring it feels like starting all over with her again :rolleyes:
 
AshTay said:
Kissing spine - neither the physio nor vet felt this was likely but I think it's possible. If the behaviour persists then I will definitely be pushing for further investigation with this in mind.
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The ONLY way to diagnose KS is by x.ray. If the bolting is for no visible reason, then pain is usually the cause. I had a mare with KS who was regularly treated by the physio who didn't realise it was why she was tense. It was only when the vet happened to witness an explosion that he changed his mind and x.rayed. Up until then he was dismissive of KS as she didn't react to palpation - they rarely do!
 
Thanks again everyone. I'll report back on how he goes this weekend. If the same thing happens again then I'll be calling the vet. I really don't think it's an issue of not enough work - hard to get across on a forum but it just doesn't fit. I've had a horse who needed regular work before and it was different.
Anyway - a gratuitous photo of my lovely boy taken a couple of months ago shortly after the abscess (hence the resting hind foot). He's Welsh D x TB (the angle of the photo makes him look skinnier than he was).

candy.jpg
 
Sorry I haven't read all the replies.

I used to have a WelshDxTB mare bought as a rising 4 yr old. All was well for the 1st summer that we had her (bought in March), except that she was VERY proud of her food, even hay, and girthy. Then she started headshaking, - a new, bigger browband sorted that out. Then she started bucking occasionally - a new saddle solved that problem. However she more and more difficult to ride and handle, there seemed to be no real reason for her behaviours, sometimes she would be absolutely fine. Eventually we realised that she could not eat either cereals or cane sugar. She was fine with unmolassed beet and alfalfa, fortunately.
One particualr incident springs to mind from before we realised what the problem was. I was having a side-saddle lesson on her and she was going well. It was past her usual feed time. I told the RI that i though the mare had done enough and we should stop. RI persuaded me to work for a few more minutes (one more circuit of the school in trot). She absolutely exploded and I flew off. Apparently the street lights on the road above us could be seen under her girth and back legs! I can only assume that she was ready for her next 'fix' of hard feed - she really was like a drug addict.
I noticed in your OP that your horse has just changed fields and as the grass is still growing in this mild weather, I imagine that there is more sugar in it than your horse has been used to in his last field.
I recommend keeping a diary to monitor his behaviour 9even the slightest thing) and any changes which you have made to his routine to see if you can find a correlation.
Good luck!
 
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