Managing LGL in an oldie with no working front teeth?

sarahann1

sarahann1

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I'm pondering the management of my oldest horse this spring/summer, he's around 26 and his front teeth no longer meet (backs are fine). In the past he's been suspected lami, footy with a stretched white line and pulses. I have lots of thoughts mulling around and I'm wondering if anyone else has any ideas that I've missed?

Points in no particular order:

He's unshod
He's had a wee bout of white line disease last year, cleared up no bother
Is on good grazing -bordering on too good really.
He can't be muzzled, his front teeth issues means he then can't grab any grass at all.
He can't go on a normal short/no grazing paddock - see above about his teeth.
I can't abide horses standing for ages with nothing in their bellies.
He's not in any work, his back is knackered - can't even cope with lunging now.
Despite having useless front teeth, he came out of last summer looking very well, think pregnant mare well.
He had a general MOT blood test last year which came back fine.
He can't stay in for any length of time, his circulation is poor, his legs badly fill up.
I'm not prepared to keep an older horse on box rest for any extended length of time - I don't feel it's fair.
He's not on any meds at all just now.

So, what are my options? Here's what I'm thinking:

Bring him in at 8pmish - it would have to be at night, my other horse needs the stable for the day time, atm I can't switch this, but that may change - turn him out at about 8-9am. Have only soaked hay available through the night. I'm hoping this will be enough, he's effectively self muzzled so shouldn't guzzle up lots in the hours he's out.

BUT, what do I do if that doesn't work and he does go down the LGL road?

Feed him lots of little low starch/sugar feeds and keep him off the good grass altogether and accept he won't get anything inbetween feeds? - I don't like this option at all, I hate them being without, I feel it's not fair.

PTS? - He's perfectly fine in every other respect, not sour or dour, he's a happy chappy - Is this even fair to consider?? I feel guilty even writing it! :(

Any thoughts would be very much appreciated, thanks!
 
i feel that their quality of life is most important, you know your horse and your option of keeping him in at night sounds like a good one to me. at least he can then be a normal horse during the day... if my horse couldnt ever go in the field(she is 24 and cushings) i am afraid the PTS will be my decision so i dont think you should feel guilty thinking it....everything has to be considered and its good that you are trying to work something out now...good luck..
 
sueonmull said:
Have you had anyone have good look at his teeth? 26 isn't that old and it may be that with attention to his molars his incisor bite might be improved?
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It was my vet who last checked his teeth, I trust him completely. He said his back teeth can't have anymore off. I could get a second opinion though, thanks.
 
splashgirl45 said:
i feel that their quality of life is most important, you know your horse and your option of keeping him in at night sounds like a good one to me. at least he can then be a normal horse during the day... if my horse couldnt ever go in the field(she is 24 and cushings) i am afraid the PTS will be my decision so i dont think you should feel guilty thinking it....everything has to be considered and its good that you are trying to work something out now...good luck..
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Thanks, I'm keeping my fingers and toes crossed he'll be ok coming in.
 
Can you not strip graze him at all? Keep doing what youre doing, if hes happy. If by any chance, he does come down with Laminitis, take things from there.
Soaked hay is a good idea, and Hi fi molasses free is the lowest chop you can get, if thats any help
 
Strip grazing or a perimeter track with soaked hay out would be my preference, it's how I manage my elderly mare. She is effectively out 24/7 but her diet is still controlled.
 
I'm willing to bet that he will find a way to eat grass, either by pulling it up with his lips or eating slightly out of the side of his mouth. Lots of horses and ponies go hours without food - they are called riding school horses! I used to care for a 40+ pony with no grinding teeth, in fact her front nippers were about the only ones that did work, but she could still chomp her way through a carrot quite happily. I kept her on fully soaked food comprised of plenty of high fibre nuts to the (dry) weight of the hay she couldn't have. She did absolutely fine. Give him a chance and if it doesn't work, well you know what you have to do.
 
Gutted, farrier has been out today and suspects LGL :(

Smartie has been coming in through the day from around 9.30am and going back out at about 8pm, I made the stupid, stupid mistake of not soaking his hay, balls, balls, balls.

Spoken to the vet who's said give him a course of bute, keep him in on a deep bed with soaked hay for a few days and take it from there. He'll hopefully come out next week (obv if Smartie gets worse I'll be phoning for an earlier visit) to see how we're getting on.

Not looking forward to managing this for the rest of the summer, poor guy isn't enjoying coming in as it is (he's lived out 24/7 for the past 9yrs), he wasn't wanting to be caught this morning which is fairly unusual for him. He can't be strip grazed, there is that option at the yard unfortunately and the starvation paddock is really quite short for his teeth to manage. The last time I tried to put him in there he wouldn't settle, he went in in the morning and my YO had to phone me later on at night because he's spent the entire day getting himself more and more wound up :(

100% gutted and kicking myself massively :(
 
What is LGL ?

Muzzle but cut the hole bigger so at least he's getting something, I do this with mine when the grass is short he's 35
 
NOISYGIRL said:
What is LGL ?

Muzzle but cut the hole bigger so at least he's getting something, I do this with mine when the grass is short he's 35
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LGL = Low Grade Laminitis.

Thanks, I could try a muzzle with a bigger hole, so obvious now you say it, but I hadn't thought about it!
 
If he can manage chaff then feed him an unmollassed chaff,and unmolassed suger beet eg speedibeet which are both safe for lami horses ,micronised linseed,perhaps soaked fast fibre a lot of people swear by that although my old mare hated it.Spiller lite balancer is in tiny pellets so that would soak too.I think you will be able to find lots of suitable feeds but go for unmollassed always,good luck.
 
OLDGREYMARE said:
If he can manage chaff then feed him an unmollassed chaff,and unmolassed suger beet eg speedibeet which are both safe for lami horses ,micronised linseed,perhaps soaked fast fibre a lot of people swear by that although my old mare hated it.Spiller lite balancer is in tiny pellets so that would soak too.I think you will be able to find lots of suitable feeds but go for unmollassed always,good luck.
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Thanks, I have fast fibre, he's getting his bute in that, but he's now on a strict diet of soaked hay so he's getting as little as I can get away with for him to get the bute.
 
_HP_ said:
Starvation paddock with soaked would be my choice :)
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Thanks, I might have to try this, just really concerned with his teeth being the way they are he'll not get close on enough to keep him going, our starvation paddock is really quite short.

Vet says he may well have to stay in for longer than 12hrs a day, but I'm finding this hard to contemplate for an older horse, I'd rather he was out and about enjoying life.

It's hard to find the balance of keeping him right in terms of his feet etc and happy in himself psychologically.
 
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Is he overweight? Is that the reason for the LGL? Could it be a mineral imbalance - magnesium deficiency presents as loose white line for example. Look into the Forageplus range of mineral supplements, they may tighten up his feet and prevent the sugars from affecting them so much.
Otherwise I would be keeping him on the starvation paddock with soaked hay and unmollassed beet pulp (24 hours too, so that you reduce any stressors like coming in to the stable at night and changing environment twice a day. My 18 year old doesn't have dental problems but the slightest amount of over grazing will go straight to his feet and he lives quite happily like that.
 
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When was his last Cushings test? What value did it come back as?

I would also be keeping him out all the time on a bare paddock with soaked hay and a source of low sugar fibre source such as unmollased beet.
 
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I was thinking have you have him tested for cushings too.

Sorry to hear he has LGL hope you find suitable way of managing it. I've recently swicthed to hi-fi molasses free for my ponies. I have a 21yo who I am conscious of keeping at a suitable weight now.
 
Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

My vet has been out and we've had a chat about what to do next, he agrees it's laminitis.

The plan is keep him in for a bit longer, a bit more bute to get on top of any remaining inflammation, then 3/4 days in off the bute, if after all this he's sound he can go out overnight with a muzzle with a bigger hole cut in it and come in through the day with soaked hay.

If the above then ends up with him sore again, we'll call it a day. I could go down the cushings tests route, but he's at least 26, been retired for the last 3yrs, and he didn't go through this winter past particularly well.

Got my fingers crossed he'll be around for a few months yet.
 
Wee update: This is a topic which comes up now and again, and maybe someone will find my experiences helpful, maybe not, I'm finding it cathartic to write about it and it's proving useful to keep dates in mind and what happened when.

So, Smartie has been kept in on box rest on a deep litter shavings bed with soaked hay and a tiny feed with a broad spectrum supplement and probiotic in it. He's had a course of bute too. Once his pulses had gone down, with my vets and farriers agreement he's been reintroduced to turnout with a grazing muzzle on (I made the hole bigger to compensate for his teeth) gradually, still coming in for soaked hay on his deep bed. Got him to 12-14hrs out, no signs of pulses coming back, very happy within himself, pushed it to 16-18hrs out and the pulses are back, not bounding, but definitely raised :(

In between all this he started choking a wee bit on his hay, so he's had his teeth done too.

I changed my mind about the cushings test, I'm taking advantage of the fact it's free just now for the lab part, so I seems silly not to get it done, just waiting to get the results back. I really don't know what my plan will be if the results come back positive, crossing that bridge if it comes.

As all of this has been going on, one of his field mates was brought in with suspected tie-up, this brought on a devastating bout of laminitis, poor pony didn't have much of a chance, he left us on Monday :(

Seeing him go through all that has raised lots of questions for me, none of which I'm sure of an answer for:

How long should we 'try' for?
How much pain is 'ok' and for how long, is it ok for well-being to be compromised temporarily if the result is a well horse longer term?
If the above is ok, how long is it ok for?

Questions, questions, questions.....
 
sorry to hear he has laminitis, sounds like you are managing it ok. if he test positive for cushings this could be the reason he has laminitis and if you gave him prascend to manage the cushings it will help to control the laminitis.

when you make any decisions regarding his treatment or future just try and think of his quality of life and remember what a good life he has had until recently.. my previous horse injured her stifle while in the field and was in quite a bit of pain ..my options were 2 weeks boxrest on pain relief until injury settles down, then investigate the problem. as she was 24 and already has arthritis in her knee and would stiffen up on box rest I decided to let her go..a very difficult decision as I had bought her when she was 15months old. I have never regretted the decision but still miss her 13 years on..im not saying pts now but hope my story will help you when the time comes...good luck with whatever you decide
 
If you look on this link and join their facebook page (EMS, PPID (cushings)Facebook group uk), you will get a lot of help on there.
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/
Cushings isnt the end of the world, nor is laminitis?..pain won't come into it once you have found the cause and come up with the appropriate plan. The ladies are very knowledgable and helpful. Good luck :)
 
splashgirl45 said:
sorry to hear he has laminitis, sounds like you are managing it ok. if he test positive for cushings this could be the reason he has laminitis and if you gave him prascend to manage the cushings it will help to control the laminitis.

when you make any decisions regarding his treatment or future just try and think of his quality of life and remember what a good life he has had until recently.. my previous horse injured her stifle while in the field and was in quite a bit of pain ..my options were 2 weeks boxrest on pain relief until injury settles down, then investigate the problem. as she was 24 and already has arthritis in her knee and would stiffen up on box rest I decided to let her go..a very difficult decision as I had bought her when she was 15months old. I have never regretted the decision but still miss her 13 years on..im not saying pts now but hope my story will help you when the time comes...good luck with whatever you decide
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Thanks, the biggest worry I have is him needing prolonged box rest, he's a old man he deserves to be out in the field a happy old man, not cooped up for days on end. That said, I've got to keep his feet sound, combining keeping his mind and feet sound is a challenge.

_HP_ said:
If you look on this link and join their facebook page (EMS, PPID (cushings)Facebook group uk), you will get a lot of help on there.
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/
Cushings isnt the end of the world, nor is laminitis?..pain won't come into it once you have found the cause and come up with the appropriate plan. The ladies are very knowledgable and helpful. Good luck :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link, there is so much information! He's already on a low starch/sugar diet so I'm half way there. Now I just need his pulses to stay down, they are yoyoing up and down, though they've never reached bounding levels again thankfully.

His cushings test has come back as 44 which for a horse who is at least 26 isn't overly bad according to the vets. They're recommending retesting in the autumn to see what his rise is and taking it from there.
 
Just a thought - are you providing any other frog support other than a deep bed? I ask just because it used to make an amazing difference to one of mine, when my stable management let him down I sadly confess, and when a friend's horse was also suffering she borrowed my 'lily pads', bandaged them on and the vet when he came out reckoned the prompt bandaging on of the pads probably saved severe rotation of the pedal bone and led to a faster recovery.

I'd also suggest, if it is possible on your yard, making an outdoor extension to the stable if he is so used to being out. Just corral off a section of yard with a similar size to the stable, so your boy can stretch his legs a bit, but not go loopy and stress his feet. It might help stop his legs filling too.
 
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