Manege

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iestynlad

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Please spell this correctly! It is MANEGE not menage. A menage is a household in French as in menage a trois! Sorry for missing acute and grave accents due to English keyboard.

What REALLY p's me off are equestrian estate agents with glossy brochures who get this spelling wrong.

Yes, very early post but can't sleep due to worry over sick pony - has been going on for months now.
 
It's also used in French to denote housework - I have visions of people riding round their MENAGE with their little feather duster...
I find it hard to take anyone's horse sense seriously if they can't get it right - specially professionals like estate agents! But then I'm a horsesnob ;)
 
In England, menage means arena. It doesn't matter that we pinched manege from another language and made an incompetent job of using it, now, if you want anyone to understand you, its menage. Get used to it because its unlikely to change back in the foreseeable future.
 
Flame_ said:
In England, menage means arena. It doesn't matter that we pinched manege from another language and made an incompetent job of using it, now, if you want anyone to understand you, its menage. Get used to it because its unlikely to change back in the foreseeable future.
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This.

I don't think I have ever heard someone use the word 'manege' to describe a school, I've only ever heard it as menage.

Mostly I use school anyway...
 
As someone explained elsethread - Boosboos, I think - the use of the word 'manege' to describe an outdoor arena is, actually incorrect, as in France it's a word that describes an indoor or covered arena.

So if we're going to use a French phrase to describe an outdoor schooling area it should be 'carriere pour chevaux'.

I think I'll stick to 'arena' or 'school'!
 
Flame_ said:
In England, menage means arena. It doesn't matter that we pinched manege from another language and made an incompetent job of using it, now, if you want anyone to understand you, its menage. Get used to it because its unlikely to change back in the foreseeable future.
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OK I admit I am a pendant, but I can't find a single English dictionary which gives 'menage' as arena. They all give the 'household' 'social grouping', 'people who live together' or even 'animal grouping' definitions, all consistent with its use in French. Urban and other dictionaries mention 'menage a trois'. Meanwhile manege is defined as both the art of training a horse and the place of training a horse.

This seems to suggest that the use of menage as arena in English is a misuse and not an adaptation of the word.
 
Manege From Wikipedia.............

Manege is the French word for a riding academy and may refer to one of the following:

Salle du Manège in Paris
Konnogvardeisky Manege in Petersburg
Mikhailovsky Manege in Petersburg

i.e. horse schooling arena ! :)
 
Loads of horsey jargon isn't in the dictionary, my spell check can't even deal with "eventing"! Language is, first and foremost, about communication, say "menage" and people will know what you are on about (regardless of the way it means three way in France), say "manege" and its almost guaranteed the reply will be "what?". That doesn't help anybody.
 
Flame_ said:
Loads of horsey jargon isn't in the dictionary, my spell check can't even deal with "eventing"! Language is, first and foremost, about communication, say "menage" and people will know what you are on about (regardless of the way it means three way in France), say "manege" and its almost guaranteed the reply will be "what?". That doesn't help anybody.
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Sorry but 'eventing' comes up in tonnes of dictionaries with the equestrian definition, it's your word processing system's spelling database that's limited. Compilling a dictionary takes years and hunderds of editors exactly because it is supposed to reflect the way a language is used. So a 19th centrury dictionary will have an entry for 'gay' as 'happy', but a late 20th one should also offer an alternative entry as 'homosexual' reflecting the change in the use of the word. Of course language is about communication that's why we shouldn't be misusing it otherwise others will find it difficult to understand us!
 
Flame_ said:
Language is, first and foremost, about communication, say "menage" and people will know what you are on about (regardless of the way it means three way in France), say "manege" and its almost guaranteed the reply will be "what?". That doesn't help anybody.
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Maybe where you come from, but I repeat, I find it hard to take anyone's "horsey" credentials seriously if they get this wrong! Pedantic maybe, but it's only in the last few years that this error has crept in. Maybe it's just us oldies that take it seriously.

We use lots of non English words - Dressage, numnah, jodhpurs - and we seem to manage (!) to spell and even pronounce them correctly - I really wish we could respect the language it came from enough to get it right!
 
Booboos said:
Sorry but 'eventing' comes up in tonnes of dictionaries with the equestrian definition, it's your word processing system's spelling database that's limited. Compilling a dictionary takes years and hunderds of editors exactly because it is supposed to reflect the way a language is used. So a 19th centrury dictionary will have an entry for 'gay' as 'happy', but a late 20th one should also offer an alternative entry as 'homosexual' reflecting the change in the use of the word. Of course language is about communication that's why we shouldn't be misusing it otherwise others will find it difficult to understand us!
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"Menage" is the word that is used, the dictionary at some point will catch up. This will happen before the entire English horse world starts to say "manege". You are fighting a losing battle and for what, so we can speak correct stolen French? Why, who cares? As long as in England everyone uses the same word it can be the right one for this language, and as the vast majority use "menage", that seems the most sensible one to go with to me.

ETA - Americans speak English, right, well American English? Yet they spell and pronounce, for example, "Mum" as "Mom". Hadn't you better get over to America and tell them they're all just wrong, wrong, wrong and you've come to sort it out and put it all back exactly how its supposed to be? ;)
 
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intouch said:
Maybe where you come from, but I repeat, I find it hard to take anyone's "horsey" credentials seriously if they get this wrong!
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There are a lot of extremely talented professional riders that aren't linguistic experts - are you seriously saying you'd disregard their abilities for getting a word technically wrong?:rolleyes:
 
xspiralx said:
There are a lot of extremely talented professional riders that aren't linguistic experts - are you seriously saying you'd disregard their abilities for getting a word technically wrong?:rolleyes:
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I know quite a few extremely talented professionals - none of whom get the word Manege wrong. To answer your question - yes.
 
Flame_ said:
"Menage" is the word that is used, the dictionary at some point will catch up. This will happen before the entire English horse world starts to say "manege". You are fighting a losing battle and for what, so we can speak correct stolen French? Why, who cares? As long as in England everyone uses the same word it can be the right one for this language, and as the vast majority use "menage", that seems the most sensible one to go with to me.

ETA - Americans speak English, right, well American English? Yet they spell and pronounce, for example, "Mum" as "Mom". Hadn't you better get over to America and tell them they're all just wrong, wrong, wrong and you've come to sort it out and put it all back exactly how its supposed to be? ;)
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That is a bizarre argument as it suggests that one person has a better grasp of the usage of a word than all the dictionary editors put together. How would you know which word the majority of users use? According to that theory anything I say, in whatever way I chose to say it, is always right and it's just a matter of time before the world catches up with me!
 
Thankfully, I don't know anyone in real life who says manege/menage... it seems to be a HHO thing. It sounds silly to me, something a 40 something lady, who has recently taken up dresaaarge, would say... :)

I do however agree with flame the dictionaries are always a good few years behind popular useage...although I've not come across this term so can't say I agree with how widespread it is.
 
Doesn't matter if we nicked it from another language. Most words are "nicked" from another language - that's how language evolves. The spelling and the pronunciation are WRONG. It is manege. Why should we continue to look like a nation of dub clucks to the French speaking world.
Shame on you Kirsty Allsop and Phil Spencer in last night's Relocation Relocation pronouncing it Menage! Or should that be last night's Rolecution, Rolecution!!!
 
So what? Like I said above, if you tried to sort out all the words which Americans pinched from us then spelt and pronounced wrong you'd be in for a big, pointless and unpopular challenge. Does that make Americans dumb? Language change is just what happens sometimes and I think its best not to let it worry you.
 
Booboos said:
That is a bizarre argument as it suggests that one person has a better grasp of the usage of a word than all the dictionary editors put together. How would you know which word the majority of users use? According to that theory anything I say, in whatever way I chose to say it, is always right and it's just a matter of time before the world catches up with me!
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But Flame wasn't talking about one person, she was talking about the majority. A lot of horsey people now refer to an arena/ sand school as a "menage". This might be a bastardization of the French but, lets be honest, that's what happens when foreign words are assimilated into a language. Gradually, I imagine that the word "menage", used in this context, will stop being seen as a French word at all, and will eventually be seen simply as an English word meaning arena/ school/ paddock. We seem to be in the transition period at the moment.
You have to allow for an exchange of words between languages, especially nowadays with technology and cheap travel bringing far more people into contact with different languages/ cultures, and it's understandable that, in some cases, the original meaning of the word will be lost.
 
HashRouge said:
But Flame wasn't talking about one person, she was talking about the majority. A lot of horsey people now refer to an arena/ sand school as a "menage". This might be a bastardization of the French but, lets be honest, that's what happens when foreign words are assimilated into a language. Gradually, I imagine that the word "menage", used in this context, will stop being seen as a French word at all, and will eventually be seen simply as an English word meaning arena/ school/ paddock. We seem to be in the transition period at the moment.
You have to allow for an exchange of words between languages, especially nowadays with technology and cheap travel bringing far more people into contact with different languages/ cultures, and it's understandable that, in some cases, the original meaning of the word will be lost.
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Loads of people seem to spell 'menage' especially on HHO, but I can't say I know anyone who pronounces it 'menage', everyone seems to say 'manege'. But that is part of my point, neither Flame nor I will know enough people to come to a statistically informed conclusion, but dictionary editors will do exactly that job as that is what they are supposed to do. Since the word has not been updated in the dictionary it's more reasonable to assume its usage is incorrect rather than prevalent and now dominant. Otherwise there would be no such thing as the incorrect application of a language.
 
intouch said:
I know quite a few extremely talented professionals - none of whom get the word Manege wrong. To answer your question - yes.
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Hilarious.

Personally, I judge a horse person's expertise on their riding ability, not their linguistic skills, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

Maybe we should get all riders going round Badminton to pass a literacy test before riding? Because obviously if they can't, they must be useless. :rolleyes:
 
Funny thing is that you so rarely hear the word manege it always sounds like the person saying it is being a bit superior, like 'I know the right word even if nobody else does'. I use school, arena, menage and big cat litter tray variously. But although I know it should be manage I don't ever say it.

Have to say its not one that bothers me, I dislike much more is misuse of the word 'bolted' when describing being unable to pull up because horsey is ignoring you. Its a shame there isn't a single word that describes that. Perhaps we could choose an inappropriate french word for it lol
 
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