Mare with leg/knee twitch (video)

[Silverfire]

My mare has had this knee/front leg twitch for a while now, both fore legs. She has got a lip twitch too but I'm not sure if that's just normal for some horses. You can see leg twitch at about 27 seconds onwards in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa6KPK253Hw
She is dozing in this video but her legs also twitch while she is stood eating and while she is out in the field, they actually twitch worse after she has been out, and last night she was lay down sleeping and her legs jerked. It has been suggested it could be due to sore heels but in this second video you can see her left leg twitch/jerk when she hasn't really got any weight on it, she is stood waiting to come in with her left fore leg back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNM8xhvDfK8
Anyone had or seen anything similar?

 

[BethH]

Could be the shoeing/trimming - mine was shod badly and when I asked them to sort the heels out as they were running forward they set the shoe too far back and he was standing at the wrong angle so his front leg began to shake - I took him barefoot as I realised his feet had been mucked up and the shaking stopped almost immediately. If the leg is tired from supporting another poorly leg it could happen too. Might want the vet to look, but they are not great about foot balance - is she shod, that looks like she is tired from trying to hold herself up, I would go feet first, maybe look at a 2nd opinion from a DAEP or quality farrier and seek vet advice, if it has been going on for a while I would get it checked out as you don't want it to get worse - decent foot balance is key to a sound horse. Good luck

 

[Michen]

Yep my horse did this... and still does. His knees almost don't "lock" properly and I very much believe it goes hand in hand with his foot soreness. Not wanting to bear weight on his heels etc. It's improving since he's been barefoot.

 

[GermanyJo]

I would also say it is feet issue .. the horse is trying to avoid putting weight on the back of the foot.

 

[twiggy2]

looks like the horse is not locking the knee joint but is instead relying on soft tissue structures to stabilise the joint-would e vet visit if she was mine.

i used to look after a horse that could not lock his knee joints and he used to sleep with his head over the stable door and rest the head and neck weight on the door, he often would start to fall and then wake up and right himself.
it was many years ago and was never investigated, he was fine to ride and when turned out was just when he was sleeping.

 

[Silverfire]

Thanks for your replies everyone. I have got vet coming to one of my others tomorrow so I will get him to have a look at this one too.
Michen do your horses legs jerk aswell as having wobbly knees? Its the jerk that worries me most as she has done it while lying down too. Shes an unbroken 5 year old so not shod. I took these pics couple days ago. Not sure how long she has had wobbly knees but I know she has definitely had the knee jerk since at least last September.

 

[BethH]

Can you do a photo of her sole so we can see the heels, she looks very upright/feet look quite long, looks like weight being carried on the toe rather than the heel but the photos couldbe deceptive & I'm definitely no expert......

 

[Birker2020]

My horse used to do this although he was slightly back at the knee and the vet seemed to think that was what caused it. The photos you show don't suggest this with your horse.

I am not suggesting that your horse has this for one second (don't panic) but he also went on to develop wobblers and did the same knee jerk reaction as your horse - this was attributed by the consultant at Liverpool to the trapped nerves in his spinal cord. Does your mare have any co-ordination problems at all?

Maybe your vet will be able to rule this out for you but might be worth asking.
I hope i haven't alarmed you but have never seen it in a horse before or since until your video.

 

[Silverfire]

I've got a few photo's of her soles and hooves from different angles. Her right fore looks the worst when you look from behind, its like her feet are tipping inwards. The inside heel on all four is a little bit higher. They are being trimmed every 6 - 8 weeks, last trim was four weeks on Monday. Shes not lame at all. Could it be this that is causing the twitchy/wobbly legs? Vet looked at her yesterday and said her knees are fine. Her frogs look ragged but they are hard with no infection in them. Another video taken Thursday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Xu-u-NmS8

Right fore

Rightfore outside

Rightfore inside

Left fore

 

[twiggy2]

what did the vet say?

 

[BethH]

The photo just above where you have typed right fore outside, the heel looks quite underrun and in the video it looks like she is leaning on her toes and not using her heels - there a few good foot people on this forum who are far more knowledgeable than me, the feet don't look particularly well balanced to me and it could be causing incorrect foot landing, as to whether that is the source of the problem I'm not a vet, but it can't be helping. Did your vet give you any feedback?

Why don't you try a new post asking for thoughts on the photos of the feet, there are some brilliant posters on here that might respond, especially Heelfirst - very pragmatic!

 

[ester]

They aren't nice feet so they could well be your issue. To me they look tall, long, base narrow and underun. They aren't doing a great job for her. Does she have another issue with her right fore that she is compensating for? Id suggest more movement needed but not sure how easy that is as not broken as not used to that unless you can set a field track up? Pop a hoof based post up with a link to this one OP to attract some more comments with diet and history info too

 

[Red-1]

I agree with ester, the hooves do not look bet balanced to me, with one of the feet having heels well forwards. I am no expert, just interested in feet since taking Jay's shoes off, but if you were to start a new thread I think you can copy and paste instead of having to post all the photos again.

Well spotted with those symptoms, it may the thing that helps you to get her feet sorted before she has to start work in earnest.

 

[Michen]

Thanks for your replies everyone. I have got vet coming to one of my others tomorrow so I will get him to have a look at this one too.
Michen do your horses legs jerk aswell as having wobbly knees? Its the jerk that worries me most as she has done it while lying down too. Shes an unbroken 5 year old so not shod. I took these pics couple days ago. Not sure how long she has had wobbly knees but I know she has definitely had the knee jerk since at least last September.

Sorry just saw this. No they don't jerk but I imagine if the knees aren't locking properly because the horse doesn't want to put weight on the back of the heel then the jerk wouldn't be too unusual?

 

[Michen]

Sorry just saw this. No they don't jerk but I imagine if the knees aren't locking properly because the horse doesn't want to put weight on the back of the heel then the jerk wouldn't be too unusual?

Here's what he did. In hindsight that should have been my first warning sign before he went lame. He didn't always do it, maybe once/twice a week I would notice it?

[video=youtube;pKVf5ZmnG3I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKVf5ZmnG3I[/video]

 

[Silverfire]

Here's what he did. In hindsight that should have been my first warning sign before he went lame. He didn't always do it, maybe once/twice a week I would notice it?

[video=youtube;pKVf5ZmnG3I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKVf5ZmnG3I[/video]

Thanks for posting that Michen, that's exactly what she is doing. She does it most of the time now especially while and after she has been out, not sure when it started but I have a video of her from September and I can see her leg jerking in that.

Thanks everyone else for your comments, all helpful. I think she is landing toe first on her fronts but its quite hard to tell. I did notice today that when she turns corners sharply with left leg on inside she does take a lame step or two on that right fore - this is something new. I'm going to try and find a different trimmer or farrier this week to try and get her feet more comfortable. Poor girl has enough going on with her teeth without having sore feet too.

 

[Michen]

Thanks for posting that Michen, that's exactly what she is doing. She does it most of the time now especially while and after she has been out, not sure when it started but I have a video of her from September and I can see her leg jerking in that.

Thanks everyone else for your comments, all helpful. I think she is landing toe first on her fronts but its quite hard to tell. I did notice today that when she turns corners sharply with left leg on inside she does take a lame step or two on that right fore - this is something new. I'm going to try and find a different trimmer or farrier this week to try and get her feet more comfortable. Poor girl has enough going on with her teeth without having sore feet too.

No worries. Might be useful to get some x rays

 

[ester]

Where are you OP? Maybe someone on here might have a suggestion, there isn't a huge amount to trim on them currently to make them 'right' so someone who can take a more holistic view on getting them to improve might be better. I don't think she has any option but to land toe first currently.

 

[Silverfire]

The photo just above where you have typed right fore outside, the heel looks quite underrun and in the video it looks like she is leaning on her toes and not using her heels - there a few good foot people on this forum who are far more knowledgeable than me, the feet don't look particularly well balanced to me and it could be causing incorrect foot landing, as to whether that is the source of the problem I'm not a vet, but it can't be helping. Did your vet give you any feedback?

Why don't you try a new post asking for thoughts on the photos of the feet, there are some brilliant posters on here that might respond, especially Heelfirst - very pragmatic!

BethH and twiggy2 I asked vet about her heels and he did look at them but I don't remember him saying anything about them other than asking if she stumbled while out in field (no) and if I had worked her ridden (no). He checked her knees and said there was no problem with them and he said he didn't know why her legs were jerking but he didn't think it worth investigating further.

Ester what sort of holistic approach? I'm on Shropshire/Powys border, I have put another post on about trimmer recommendations but no replies so far. Her back feet have a bit of growth and will need trimming soon. As far as I can see her leg conformation is fairly good. Shes had lots of teeth problems over last three and a half years which is why she is still unbroken. Her right side teeth are worse and she has had a slight head tilt to the left on and off so maybe she has been carrying her head and neck stiffly and thats affecting her feet - not sure if thats possible.

 

[Birker2020]

BethH and twiggy2 I asked vet about her heels and he did look at them but I don't remember him saying anything about them other than asking if she stumbled while out in field (no) and if I had worked her ridden (no). He checked her knees and said there was no problem with them and he said he didn't know why her legs were jerking but he didn't think it worth investigating further.

Ester what sort of holistic approach? I'm on Shropshire/Powys border, I have put another post on about trimmer recommendations but no replies so far. Her back feet have a bit of growth and will need trimming soon. As far as I can see her leg conformation is fairly good. Shes had lots of teeth problems over last three and a half years which is why she is still unbroken. Her right side teeth are worse and she has had a slight head tilt to the left on and off so maybe she has been carrying her head and neck stiffly and thats affecting her feet - not sure if thats possible.

I may be clutching at straws but personally I am still convinced that the horse has a trapped nerve in her neck. When you said she was holding her head to the side this can be attributed to the horses atlas being out of alignment. This might be where the impingement (if I am correct) is coming from. It might be worth just carrying out a couple of simple neuro tests. The sway test is easy and simple enough test to do. See this link for an explanation http://www.equinewobblers.com/diagnostics/neurological_examination.html

I'm not suggesting your horse has wobblers or anything like this but even if the neuro tests show her to have some sort of weakness its not all doom and gloom.

I just think her symptoms are very much like my previous horse so i am talking from experience. However I'm not a vet, but just an owner of a horse who exhibited the same symptoms. I would suggest some comprehensive Xrays of her neck would be the next logical step if she appears to have a neuro condition if you/your vet do decide to carry out some of the tests on the link.

 

[ester]

I guess I mean what you can do diet/movement/booting *probs not for you) wise not just trimming, or slight trimming to encourage her to land slightly differently and start to use the back of her feet so she can develop them. I think it can be a bit harder when they are bare already because if you are taking shoes off you are automatically making a big change.


You can see from the back of her right fore she isn't very symmetrical and from the sole view that she has more hoof on the lateral (outside) side, something that usually happens if the horse is trying to compensate for something higher up. My own chap has similar on a hind that he has some arthritis in, so it is quite possible.

If you draw a line down the centre of his frog to the tip of his toe you can see he has more hoof on the LH side of this photo which is also lateral side.

An extreme version.
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/jumping-to-conclusions.html
assymetrical in shoes back of hoof wise
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/symmetry-twisted-legs-and-strengthening.html

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/hoof-imbalance-how-it-affects-parts-you.html

I can only make suggestions based on reading and taking 1 older lame pony out of shoes. Farrier admitted that he didn't know anything about barefoot rehab so went on the hunt for someone else. The person I now use was suggested to me by Nic at Rockley having recently finished the UKNHCP training but I did speak to a couple of others to get a feel for them too. Registrations for trimmers are UKNCHP, EPAUK and DAEP I think, all have slightly different philosophies and everyone then works a bit different too.

You can also ask here http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/

 

[Silverfire]

I may be clutching at straws but personally I am still convinced that the horse has a trapped nerve in her neck. When you said she was holding her head to the side this can be attributed to the horses atlas being out of alignment. This might be where the impingement (if I am correct) is coming from. It might be worth just carrying out a couple of simple neuro tests. The sway test is easy and simple enough test to do. See this link for an explanation http://www.equinewobblers.com/diagnostics/neurological_examination.html

I'm not suggesting your horse has wobblers or anything like this but even if the neuro tests show her to have some sort of weakness its not all doom and gloom.

I just think her symptoms are very much like my previous horse so i am talking from experience. However I'm not a vet, but just an owner of a horse who exhibited the same symptoms. I would suggest some comprehensive Xrays of her neck would be the next logical step if she appears to have a neuro condition if you/your vet do decide to carry out some of the tests on the link.

Sorry you lost a horse to wobblers applecart14. This is an interesting link about how incorrect occlusion of teeth can cause a loss of body balance in horses. http://www.doctorhorse.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4&Itemid=7&lang=en
My mare can turn her head and neck and touch her shoulders with her nose without moving her front legs so I don't think she has neck pain as such. Last year she had some dental work to correct the angle of her teeth (molar table angle/incorrect occlusion/she could not grind teeth together properly so quid very badly for two years). I'm not sure how you correct the angle of a horses teeth but she still has very little enamel on some of her teeth and her blood is still showing chronic inflammation/tissue inflammation depending how you want to read it. Her right side teeth were the worse, although are now improving I think, she doesn't really eat on that side. Many nerves run along side the cheek teeth so if this isn't just a foot/heel issue then I am now guessing its probably something to do with that. If the leg jerk doesn't improve as her feet and teeth do then I will certainly think about neck Xrays but not this year unless it gets worse. This is her in the field tonight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah0AAz1DQ9I

 

[Silverfire]

I guess I mean what you can do diet/movement/booting *probs not for you) wise not just trimming, or slight trimming to encourage her to land slightly differently and start to use the back of her feet so she can develop them. I think it can be a bit harder when they are bare already because if you are taking shoes off you are automatically making a big change.


You can see from the back of her right fore she isn't very symmetrical and from the sole view that she has more hoof on the lateral (outside) side, something that usually happens if the horse is trying to compensate for something higher up. My own chap has similar on a hind that he has some arthritis in, so it is quite possible.

If you draw a line down the centre of his frog to the tip of his toe you can see he has more hoof on the LH side of this photo which is also lateral side.

An extreme version.
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/jumping-to-conclusions.html
assymetrical in shoes back of hoof wise
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/symmetry-twisted-legs-and-strengthening.html

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/hoof-imbalance-how-it-affects-parts-you.html

I can only make suggestions based on reading and taking 1 older lame pony out of shoes. Farrier admitted that he didn't know anything about barefoot rehab so went on the hunt for someone else. The person I now use was suggested to me by Nic at Rockley having recently finished the UKNHCP training but I did speak to a couple of others to get a feel for them too. Registrations for trimmers are UKNCHP, EPAUK and DAEP I think, all have slightly different philosophies and everyone then works a bit different too.

You can also ask here http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/

Thanks for this ester Her back feet are a little bit better than her fronts. I have got a drive here that is a hard surface so I'm going to walk her up and down that a few times each day to see if that helps.

right hind

left hind

 

[Birker2020]

My mare can turn her head and neck and touch her shoulders with her nose without moving her front legs so I don't think she has neck pain as such. rl]

Hi thanks for the link, very interesting.

My horse gave no indication of a stiff neck, although he was extremely strong through his neck. He acted like any other horse, it was only towards the end that he started displaying ataxia and the leg jerking which made me look at your OP with interest.

Rommy was jumping discovery tracks only weeks before he was PTS. In the whole 2.5 years I owned him only twice did we think something was amiss, once when Dad filmed me and Rommy coming towards the camera and jumping the last fence in a BN class and he took off with his front legs but went straight through the fence with his back legs. Another time i was jumping the 2nd phase of a Discovery class and it was a double and my horse took off but landed straight on top of the oxer;-we both landed in a crumpled heap on the floor.

Of course had we suspected that anything was amiss we would have got the vet out sooner, (and as it was it wasn't discovered for weeks and weeks later). It wasn't until he actually started displaying ataxic behaviour that we realised there was a problem.