Mares fighting, can I do anything to calm things down?

[PollyP99]

My mare has moved to a new paddock (circa 2 months ago) she has two new field mates who she known over the fence for a year, at first things were fine but recently they've started jostling for herd leader position. It's come as a shock as my normally mild mannered girl is the one doing the chasing and backing up, she wont let her mate approach the gate area at come in time. We had an incident about a month ago where she came in with a kick Mark (vet job as went infected) so this may have been the start of the trouble, I've also been told that in her pervious home she wasn't dominant but would not be bullied, this one mare is known for bully like behaviour so can only assume my girl has decided not to let it happen.

Now I'm really worried one of them will get hurt, tonight there was lots of ears back, backing up and the strap on the other mares rug was broken so seems my mare has landed at least one kick, neither has a mark on them.

Do I wait for it to sort it self out, would you separate, anything else I can do to help?

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Are they hungry in the field, are they competing for food and getting crabby waiting for feeds, or are they competing re who gets brought in first (for food) -if food is the issue I would feed them in pecking order or bring them in in pecking order - sorry might be getting this totally wrong, what about 4 hay nets (for 3 horses) fastened up well away from each other

 

[Wagtail]

Personally I wouldn't take the risk. I would separate them. Biting is one thing but seen too many horses lose their lives through kicking.

 

[PollyP99]

There's no food in the field but it does seem to be coming in related. The first one in is actually the lowliest in pecking terms, I can't change that as her owner finishes work first, the other two it's weird I was getting mine in but it was her who started kicking off (literally), she had no need as I was there trying to catch her, she proceeded to chase, back up and kick out despite me being present to get her in. It actually delayed things if anything.

Thanks for suggestions though.

 

[PollyP99]

Personally I wouldn't take the risk. I would separate them. Biting is one thing but seen too many horses lose their lives through kicking.

Thx yes I agree it is a risk, so annoying though as she is really fond of them, I think as they are same age, build, breed neither will take the lower rank. Going to gave to see if separation is possible I think since its a large nares field its not that straight fwd on a livery yard.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

There's no food in the field but it does seem to be coming in related. The first one in is actually the lowliest in pecking terms, I can't change that as her owner finishes work first, the other two it's weird I was getting mine in but it was her who started kicking off (literally), she had no need as I was there trying to catch her, she proceeded to chase, back up and kick out despite me being present to get her in. It actually delayed things if anything.
Thanks for suggestions though.

We are in a field with a very dominant older mare, and two geldings. The mare is very chilled over summer / autumn when there is grass but when the weather gets colder, and there is competition for food she gets very dominant and will chase off anything that comes near. Also our pony is second in the pecking order and when we arrive he will assert his dominance over the gelding who is bottom, and will spend time chasing him off so he cant get anywhere near. If possible it might help to arrange it between you all so that the horses all get brought in together but in pecking order. If you cant arrange this, I would separate, not worth getting a horse kicked for, or you either. When the weather / grass situation improves next year you could put them all in together again.

 

[PollyP99]

I think you're right, thanks, I'll see what I can sort with the others.

 

[Honey08]

We had a bossy mare on DIY once and my gelding used to stand up to her. A couple of times I had to fly across the field as they were really getting stupid. I ended up separating them as it wasn't herd dynamics it was just two pig headed horses that were both too full of themselves and I didn't think they would ever sort it out. Once the livery had left we never had any problems. The gelding can still be a pain but nothing else has ever bothered getting involved. The livery had form at previous yards for battling.

 

[SaffronWelshDragon]

Just to add, i have an alpha mare who is generally fine, but gets ultra aggressive this time of the year, backing up, kicking at the other lead mare in the field next to hers. We worked out it was hunger related, she's defending her food. Enough hay restores normality. Just a thought ☺

 

[mcnaughty]

Alpha mares are not aggressive - they do not need to be. A mare to backs up, lashes out with heels and teeth is not a dominant mare. Can you put hay in the field to keep them from becoming hungry? Sounds to me to definitely be centred around food and hunger.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I have a 3 yr old cob who lived, in a previous home, with 2 geldings who spoilt her. She challenges my 21 yr old Draft mare sometimes, the Draft mare isn't having any of it. In retrospect some of their spats have been very amusing, as it is like watching Sumo wrestlers banging their bums together.

Neither of them have back shoes, so it is slightly less dangerous that it might be but I try to put them out as far apart as possible. They have access to 2 fields with the gate between them open, so they go into different fields in the morning. There is plenty of hay in far more piles than horses, spread over both fields. As for coming in, they ALWAYS come in in 'pecking order'. We have electric fences set back from the field gates, no corners to get trapped in and several 'gates' in the fences, so that we can let horses into holding pens, if necessary. We are encouraging them to wait at different gates.

We are fortunate though because the 2 Appaloosas, especially the 4 yr old, act as peacemakers and can frequently be seen standing between the protagonists in the field to distract them. I also make sure that the Draft horse's itchy 'ankles' are dealt with daily to keep her even-tempered.

 

[Honey08]

Alpha mares are not aggressive - they do not need to be. A mare to backs up, lashes out with heels and teeth is not a dominant mare. Can you put hay in the field to keep them from becoming hungry? Sounds to me to definitely be centred around food and hunger.

This!

I had that conversation with the livery a few times, who thought her mare was an alpha because it always squabbled with others. To me it was an insecure creature. My mare doesn't get involved in spats or even much herd activity, and my gelding bites her, but if there is something scary she is the one that they hide behind while she investigates, and if there is a new horse she is the one that decides when it is allowed into the group rather than on the outside.

 

[mcnaughty]

This!

I had that conversation with the livery a few times, who thought her mare was an alpha because it always squabbled with others. To me it was an insecure creature. My mare doesn't get involved in spats or even much herd activity, and my gelding bites her, but if there is something scary she is the one that they hide behind while she investigates, and if there is a new horse she is the one that decides when it is allowed into the group rather than on the outside.

Absolutely, my mare was alpha in her 10 strong herd. She never had to attack anyone, they just got out of her way but they all loved her and if she was out of the field for shows and event for a couple of days they would come running over to see her, would mouth at her like foals, squirt at her if they were in season and hide behind her if there were any scaries in the field. Aggressive mares are not dominant. They are lower down the pecking order and get nasty because of nervous issues.

 

[fburton]

Alpha mares are not aggressive - they do not need to be. A mare to backs up, lashes out with heels and teeth is not a dominant mare. Can you put hay in the field to keep them from becoming hungry? Sounds to me to definitely be centred around food and hunger.

Sorry, I disagree. Once dominance is established, it can be (and often is) maintained simply by individuals knowing where they stand in relation to each other, i.e. which one is dominant and the other subordinate in any given pair. If a herd member questions this, reminders can be given via threats of aggression, thereby avoiding horses coming to physical blows. However, there is no guarantee that overtly aggressive dominance behaviour won't emerge from time to time. For example, when new horses are introduced to a herd, there may be bouts of kicking and pushiness as they work out where they stand in relation to each other in the new herd structure. Or when the stakes are raised by hunger and competition for food, even in established herds, there may be fighting involving the "alpha" as well as amongst those lower down the hierarchy. And even when there is nothing to compete over, some dominant mares will make a point of showing they are dominant apparently just for the sake of it - we call them bullies. Temperament-wise, they tend to be more easily irritated.

So yes, aggression can appear at any level, directed towards subordinates, but "alphas" are by no means exempt from involvement in this aggression.

 

[SaffronWelshDragon]

Sorry, I disagree. Once dominance is established, it can be (and often is) maintained simply by individuals knowing where they stand in relation to each other, i.e. which one is dominant and the other subordinate in any given pair. If a herd member questions this, reminders can be given via threats of aggression, thereby avoiding horses coming to physical blows. However, there is no guarantee that overtly aggressive dominance behaviour won't emerge from time to time. For example, when new horses are introduced to a herd, there may be bouts of kicking and pushiness as they work out where they stand in relation to each other in the new herd structure. Or when the stakes are raised by hunger and competition for food, even in established herds, there may be fighting involving the "alpha" as well as amongst those lower down the hierarchy. And even when there is nothing to compete over, some dominant mares will make a point of showing they are dominant apparently just for the sake of it - we call them bullies. Temperament-wise, they tend to be more easily irritated.

So yes, aggression can appear at any level, directed towards subordinates, but "alphas" are by no means exempt from involvement in this aggression.

Agree with this. Saf has been the unchallenged leader of our herd of 4 mares since the beginning. Since she established her leadership she's adored her girls, and they all love and respect her She gets stroppy with the mare in the field next door, who seems to be the natural leader in a group of 2. I think Saf is feeling her leadership is threatened by this other natural leader next door. Like I said, as long as she feels she has enough to eat, squabbling is at an all time low.

 

[Tnavas]

Personally I wouldn't take the risk. I would separate them. Biting is one thing but seen too many horses lose their lives through kicking.

Me too - lost my lovely first bred youngster this way.

In winter it is often food motivated - put out a small amount of hay a short time before bringing in so that everyone is spread out. A slice between four may not sound much but if it calms everyone down its ideal.

I would be removing the dominant mare from the group and then see how things go. Dominance changes with age and companions - you really may have two mares of equal ranking or one suddenly come into their own and trying for leadership.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

In winter it is often food motivated - put out a small amount of hay a short time before bringing in so that everyone is spread out. A slice between four may not sound much but if it calms everyone down its ideal.

.

TBH that would be a recipe for disaster in our fields, every-one would be rushing to get to the hay first, unless there were actually 4 people with hay at the four furthest corners. We find that putting sufficient hay out in the morning works well to keep them calm at coming in time, because they are not especially hungry. We also keep to a regular timetable, so that no matter when they start queuing, they know that we will bring them in at pretty much the same time every night in winter. We don't succumb to the temptation of bringing them in early just because we are at home, because that would cause problems on the days when we are held up at work.

 

[Tnavas]

TBH that would be a recipe for disaster in our fields, every-one would be rushing to get to the hay first, unless there were actually 4 people with hay at the four furthest corners. We find that putting sufficient hay out in the morning works well to keep them calm at coming in time, because they are not especially hungry. We also keep to a regular timetable, so that no matter when they start queuing, they know that we will bring them in at pretty much the same time every night in winter. We don't succumb to the temptation of bringing them in early just because we are at home, because that would cause problems on the days when we are held up at work.

What is the difference with feeding in the morning to feeding in the afternoon. I used to feed 32 all out in a paddock together with no problems. We did feed from a tractor and trailer so we moved quite fast between piles but with my own I would drop piles over the fence line. The horses soon get in the habit of finding a pile of their own.

 

[PollyP99]

Thanks all! I really don't think its a food issue, these are 3 rotund Welsh types, on standing hay which is strip grazed and this new strip is at the other end of the paddock from the gate and the kicking off area. The issue I think ( many hours pondering) is the other mare in the 'issue' has no routine, her owner travels with work and so she is often left last, this stresses her out, she then defends the gate area.

Thinking back she did this before my mare was there (walked the gate, stressy) only now she has my mare to try to boss about. My mare has also decided she won't be told to move away since she knows I'm due (never leave her late or last, if I can't be there someone else is).

So I think I need to tackle it with the owner, I would always bring her in if it helped but she likes to give her longer out, I don't think the mare appreciates that though, tricky!

Anyway tonight they were quiet, they are known to groom each other and will graze inches apart, complex beasts.

 

[Wagtail]

The issue I think ( many hours pondering) is the other mare in the 'issue' has no routine, her owner travels with work and so she is often left last, this stresses her out, she then defends the gate area.

Thinking back she did this before my mare was there (walked the gate, stressy) only now she has my mare to try to boss about. My mare has also decided she won't be told to move away since she knows I'm due (never leave her late or last, if I can't be there someone else is).

So I think I need to tackle it with the owner, I would always bring her in if it helped but she likes to give her longer out, I don't think the mare appreciates that though, tricky!

Poor, poor mare. Why are some people so thick when it comes to managing horses? Really riles me this kind if ignorance. :mad3:

 

[PollyP99]

Poor, poor mare. Why are some people so thick when it comes to managing horses? Really riles me this kind if ignorance. :mad3:

The owner is a nice person but thinks the mare will get used to it but I don't think she ever will, she has a really similar temperament to my mare and I know she thrives on routine. She tries to stop the last mare (mine or the other one) getting caught I think so she's not alone, my mare won't be herded by her and it kicks off I think, the other one does which causes issues if I've got mine first as it means you can't get to the submissive mare.

Hmm, going to have to try and manage some kind of routine support for her without looking like an interfering person!

 

[Wagtail]

The owner is a nice person but thinks the mare will get used to it but I don't think she ever will, she has a really similar temperament to my mare and I know she thrives on routine. She tries to stop the last mare (mine or the other one) getting caught I think so she's not alone, my mare won't be herded by her and it kicks off I think, the other one does which causes issues if I've got mine first as it means you can't get to the submissive mare.

Hmm, going to have to try and manage some kind of routine support for her without looking like an interfering person!

IME horses do not get used to this kind of stress. They are herd animals and being left out alone is terrifying to them. Some will eventually shut down and accept their fate, but most simply become more stressed and dangerous to other horses or owners trying to get their horses out. Sensible YOers have a policy of no horse is to be left out alone. The second to last person brings in theirs and the last horse. You could talk to the owner along the lines of safety and she may reconsider.

 

[PollyP99]

IME horses do not get used to this kind of stress. They are herd animals and being left out alone is terrifying to them. Some will eventually shut down and accept their fate, but most simply become more stressed and dangerous to other horses or owners trying to get their horses out. Sensible YOers have a policy of no horse is to be left out alone. The second to last person brings in theirs and the last horse. You could talk to the owner along the lines of safety and she may reconsider.

I agree, we gave no YM or yo but I'll try to broach the subject, I personally hate the thought of my mare being last and have a back up that if ever she is about to be last the person in the adjoining paddock brings her for me. The owner of the mare in question would not bat an eyelid at leaving mine, it's not a nasty thing just something she thinks they can(or even should) deal with.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

What is the difference with feeding in the morning to feeding in the afternoon. I used to feed 32 all out in a paddock together with no problems. We did feed from a tractor and trailer so we moved quite fast between piles but with my own I would drop piles over the fence line. The horses soon get in the habit of finding a pile of their own.

Ours are fed in the morning on hay which has been put out before they go out. At that point in the day, they are not hungry and in fact will sometimes graze after a couple of mouthfuls of hay, so they rarely argue over the hay which is available then. There is plenty of hay, in at least 10 piles for 4 horses, spread over 2 fields, often there is some left after the girls have come in for the night.
IMO, walking into a field of hungry horses with an armful of hay is reckless and asking for trouble.

Feeding from a tractor is very different from walking into a field with an armful of hay. All set-ups do not allow you to drop hay over the boundary so that several horses can all have some. That has worked with ours in the past but it would NOT work to avoid fighting with the horses that we have atm. The Draft horse and the cob would be put in a position where they were very likely to be in conflict. Not something that I would recommend to any-one else.