Mark Phillips' Comment in H&H Today

kerilli

kerilli

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As usual, some crucial points raised. Detailed comments about the causes of the two falls at Rolex Kentucky. He doesn't mince his words either - "two horses died as a result of two appalling pieces of riding".
Even more food for thought there.
 
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As usual, some crucial points raised. Detailed comments about the causes of the two falls at Rolex Kentucky. He doesn't mince his words either - "two horses died as a result of two appalling pieces of riding".
Even more food for thought there.

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Well, son wasn't exaggerating then... Seems they saw the same "pieces of riding"
at Rolex K. Amazing if not shocking at 4* level...
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From some of the video coverage Ive seen I would agree.

It didnt do Pippa or Lucinda any harm when MP made his thoughts known about their riding many years ago!
 
he's one of the few people that top riders, or aspiring top riders, might actually listen to, i hope. he's been there, done it, plus he designs the courses, obviously.
i wonder whether the fact that he trains the u.s. team means he can't say much about british riders, either because he doesn't have the time over here to watch many events, or because of the conflict of interest etc.
 
It makes you wonder if the rider who had the rotational fall should have been stopped. looking at the video of the fall she just seemed to gallop flat out at the fence. I know they are much hotter on this in Europe (having witnessed a couple of people being stopped at the Europeans for bad riding), however this doesnt seem to have caught along in the USA. I wonder if they are frightened of being sued by riders for breach of human rights or something?!
 
Gosh Kerilli, we must be psychically linked or something, I have posted almost exactly the same point, but in CR!
 
merlotmonster, she'd already gone clear inside the time that morning on her other horse. she was only at fence 5 when it happened, but travelling amazingly fast... she went at it as if it was a steeplechase fence.
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the trouble is it takes quite a while to decide to stop someone, radio ahead, and get them stopped, i believe.
Gamebird, i hope so!
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Yes, I suppose you are right. Did she take the first 4 that quickly tho? It takes quite a lot of guts from the organisers to pull someone up and maybe they would want to see her jump a few more before doing that. A pity, as it would have saved her and her horse.
 
I think MP made some very good fair points that needed to be raised.
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I was at Eland Lodge and saw someone ride an intro fence that absolutely terrified me (and my unhorsey OH), it was those houses down the hill early on in the course. She didn't rebalance her horse, she didn't check her horse, she just galloped like mad and so nearly missed and had a horrible fall but fortunately for her (and her horse) got away with it. But I suspect after her round she was congratulated for going so (stupidly) fast when someone (as MP mentioned) should have gone over to her and told her off.
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Its terrifying tbh. Who knows perhaps in a few years time she will be competing at top level? There are different ways to ride different fences, its never about going like a bat out of hell. Terrifying. Lucinda's Cross Country Riding would have been a better start than an intro for this particular rider!!
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In my experience, BE are pretty good at keeping an eye on proceedings and reprimanding riders who look dangerous. Unfortunately it's generally after the xc round (too bl**dy late!!)

I watched someone at Withington going dangerously fast and out of control. She very nearly didnt get round safely but ended up being placed because she finished in a very quick time.

I know what it's like to go stupidly fast because you're being run away with. The rule is turn away from the fence, it's not worth risking life and limb!! If you're on a bum stride I think you should turn away too- people do in the sj so why not xc?
 
what, and get 20 penalties on the horse's record!!! you must be joking!!!! it would make it worth less money...
(removes tongue from cheek)
i have never heard of anyone at BE being reprimanded, but maybe i'm not talking to the right people!
i can think of at least 2 well-known riders that i personally consider to be dangerous xc riders, who i would not be surprised to hear had suffered rotational falls.
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This woman though didn't think she was going too fast or was unbalanced. She basically booted her horse (who was on his forehand) into the fence. He got into the bottom and so nearly toppled over, but just made it. I really believe she didn't know any better and thought she was doing a great job of riding cross country.

Boss, my point is that you know what your doing but I promise you that it would never occur to this rider to turn away, or take a check, she just didn't know any better. Hmmm maybe I'm being mean but no way did I see her a. think or b. act upon her thought coming into that fence.
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what, and get 20 penalties on the horse's record!!! you must be joking!!!! it would make it worth less money...
(removes tongue from cheek)
i have never heard of anyone at BE being reprimanded, but maybe i'm not talking to the right people!
i can think of at least 2 well-known riders that i personally consider to be dangerous xc riders, who i would not be surprised to hear had suffered rotational falls.
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I've been told off- my horse was totally out of control and although I was doing my very best, I could not slow down. I was young and naive, it didnt occur to me to retire. I was also prevented from finishing the course after a fall at one event though tbh, I think that was them being a bit OTT as that day I actaully had control!

I know one pro rider who constantly tips her horses up. She rides at such speed xc it's just horrid to watch. When it goes right, she wins. But it's not good for the poor horses and I consider her lucky to have not been seriously injured yet
 
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If you're on a bum stride I think you should turn away too- people do in the sj so why not xc?

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Wow - I sometimes do this if I'm schooling over big SJ's at home (I have to from time to time as it keeps my eye in and stops the ones in the ring from looking so big!). If I'm coming in on a definite 'miss' I circle away (sometimes at the last minute)and come again. It doesn't seem to encourage any of my horses to run out at all and I only do it very occasionally but I thought it was a serious no-no!

I've done it in the SJ warm-up, but never actually competing. I'm not ruling it out, but it just hasn't happened (yet?).

I'm pleased to hear that I'm not the only one, and that it's not always seriously wrong.
 
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If you're on a bum stride I think you should turn away too- people do in the sj so why not xc?

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Wow - I sometimes do this if I'm schooling over big SJ's at home (I have to from time to time as it keeps my eye in and stops the ones in the ring from looking so big!). If I'm coming in on a definite 'miss' I circle away (sometimes at the last minute)and come again. It doesn't seem to encourage any of my horses to run out at all and I only do it very occasionally but I thought it was a serious no-no!

I've done it in the SJ warm-up, but never actually competing. I'm not ruling it out, but it just hasn't happened (yet?).

I'm pleased to hear that I'm not the only one, and that it's not always seriously wrong.

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I do this too - if your horse is well schooled it should not teach it to run out/stop IMO. I think schooling is where you do things like circle away and get it right so that competing you do not need to (theoretically!). What I am trying to say is that if you don't correct yourself schooling, then you don't have a hope in hell of getting it right competing, and I have been known to stay on a circle which incorporates the fence approach for a good five minutes getting the canter right so the fence comes naturally! I scare myself otherwise, let alone the horse!
 
i had to circle in the BE novice sj at aldon last year. was my first ever and had to circle as a child ran into the arena and i was so stunned i fluffed the approach and circled round. still knocked it down but at least i know we tried!
 
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I've been told off- my horse was totally out of control and although I was doing my very best, I could not slow down. I was young and naive, it didnt occur to me to retire. I was also prevented from finishing the course after a fall at one event though tbh, I think that was them being a bit OTT as that day I actaully had control!

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Was this recently, Boss? Speaking from a North American perspective it used to be quite common for officials and other respected elders to tell people off if they thought it warranted. I don't remember people getting pulled up so much, but I certainly remember (personally
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) younger riders especially getting a bollocking for going to fast, taking too many habitual flyers, having unfit horses etc. They considered it their duty and to be honest, they were more likely to take the time if they thought someone had a bit of talent but just needed some steering. There were always two or three older horsemen around who could be relied upon for it!

It's pretty obvious this is no longer as "acceptable". There are still a few people not shy about expressing their very valuable opinions but it certainly doesn't seem to be expected like it was. I also think people are more likely now to take personal offence and/or see the comments as some sort of attack/grudge/personal dislike than as constructive criticism.

I hate saying, "In the old days" because it always seems like such a cop out. Besides, maybe I've got it all wrong and people are being told off everyday of the week, I'm just not hearing about it anymore.
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But socially at large that sort of "community censure" has fallen out of favour so why would it not follow suit in horses?
 
First event of last season I got a very gentle telling off from the BE person at the event for going too fast - got a heap of time penalties for going too fast. IMO I wasn't doing anything dangerous - I'd dropped the horse back down to intro, he found it far too easy, I didn't kick, but equally I didn't need to spend eons of time setting him up for each fence and I'd forgotton how slow you can go intro and get in the time. But I was still reprimanded for it, which I think is a good thing. It was enough to tell me 'too fast' without going over the top as they'd obviously radioed round the course and found out that I hadn't been booting the horse on, he just came out of the start box and didn't break stride all the way round, I could balance him and came back to trot for the drop fence etc, he just covers the ground quickly and I hadn't done enough to know better. So in answer to your question TS, yes, BE even recently are talking to people about their speed. Rumour also has it that at one event this year several people were stopped form going XC at the lower level as they were not considered safe in the SJ to proceed. What is more worrying is that apparently the dressage judges alerted people to keep an eye on them - how you can be out of control in the dressage to the point of looking dangerous and think you are ok to be at a BE event is scary.
 
That is very good then.
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Perhaps even better that it's done officially - it used to be more just someone in authority having a word - as that removes the personal component. Interesting about the post-sj concerns - that is a very proactive step.

I will say, to be fair, that censure for riding too fast, excessive circling to meet optimum time etc. IS a big deal in North America and has been the topic of much recent attention at the lower levels. However it doesn't tend to be people being spoken to personally about dangerous riding so much as for breaking the spirit of the law if not actually the letter. What is harder is to talk to people about riding that isn't actually against the rules but just gives people watching the willies! I don't really know if people are taken to task anymore for things like having a weak position or a dangerously long eye or a frightening horse but I have the sense it's less common.

On the too scary to continue dressage test front, I can totally see that! In fact I have seen it.
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I don't know how people think that's okay but I guess that's the really worrying part - clearly the people advising them have also dropped the ball somewhere along the line!
 
I think that it is brilliant that he has said exactly what he thinks. There are a fair few riders- at top level- who do unbelievable things on a cross country and do not even appear to be 'aware' about how bad it is for the horse to jump like that. Im not sure that any of the officials even reprimand them for riding like that- some of them have such a high standing in the community, that perhaps they wouldnt dare reprimand them. FFS I can see exactly why one of our very best eventing stallions was killed, yet many years later the rider still rides the novices in exactly the same way and not just on XC, that is in the showjumping arena at home over practise fences. Some people just never learn and never seem to want to learn and more needs to be done about it.
Im confused by the officials because I was told off once for going too fast on the XC at a Novice. I swear that was the slowest round that my horse had ever done- he was right off the bridle and pretty tired and I did a few pony club kicks to get him going ( obviously I would have retired him now as I was young at the time and I now know better than to push on a tired horse) and I was told off by the official, and told to slow down, and that was a SLOW round compared to his 100's of his other rounds that were done twice as fast, and sometimes stupidly fast and out of control- in fact the horse bolted flat out round the steeplechase at Sansaw three day event and I was allowed onto the XC with not even a murmur from the officials. That horse was very clever and very quick thinking so we got away with murder many times. I was only 16 so thought nothing of it.With hindsight I should have been told, and shown the right direction into how to start controlling him better. But this is a little different than a rider deliberately pushing a horse flat out or going on appalling strides, or not knowing that they were attempting a fence far too slowly like at Kentucky. There really does need to be much more official governing of cross country riding.
 
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That is very good then.
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Perhaps even better that it's done officially - it used to be more just someone in authority having a word - as that removes the personal component. Interesting about the post-sj concerns - that is a very proactive step.

I will say, to be fair, that censure for riding too fast, excessive circling to meet optimum time etc. IS a big deal in North America and has been the topic of much recent attention at the lower levels. However it doesn't tend to be people being spoken to personally about dangerous riding so much as for breaking the spirit of the law if not actually the letter. What is harder is to talk to people about riding that isn't actually against the rules but just gives people watching the willies! I don't really know if people are taken to task anymore for things like having a weak position or a dangerously long eye or a frightening horse but I have the sense it's less common.


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It is good, and it did make me think, which was the point I guess!

In relation to your second comment, no, I don't think they are and IMO it is just plain wrong that people who could command some respect don't say anything. I see all kinds of riding XC that I would rather not, but having recently witnessed the appalling tuition some people get, I am not terribly surprised TBH. How does someone novicey know their instructor is not up to scratch? They don't know any better, the tuition they are receiving is as much use as a chocolate fireguard and yet people continue to go to instructors who are nice not honest. See it all the time. That's why I think people should be accredited before they do BE.
 
Bravo Bravo MP I couldnt have said better but I would have been hung on this board had I said it.. Thank god the powers that be here in theUS now agree with my Red Hills coments after completion of XC That a certain rider nearly killed themselves with horrible horrible riding and never taking tug at any jump I watched!!
 
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As usual, some crucial points raised. Detailed comments about the causes of the two falls at Rolex Kentucky. He doesn't mince his words either - "two horses died as a result of two appalling pieces of riding".
Even more food for thought there.

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Link, please. I can't seem to find the article that you are talking about.

Bit of a devil's advocate here, but Laine Ashker was on the Olympics training list with that horse and had, I believe, received coaching with Frodo from the US Olympic trainers.

But I might be mistaken.
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It is a conundrum that people starting in the sport lack the capacity to judge the people they go to for help and information. Same in everything, I guess, but particularly dangerous in such a risky sport. It is also more common I suspect, now we are a couple of generations from the military crowd and their immediate descendants, to be far less tolerant of brutally honest teaching. Good instructors don't have to be yelling and horrid to be honest (although I think some people actually so confuse the two) - supportiveness, encouragement, and sympathetic education can exist side by side with care and responsibility. But I think you are right many people starting our confuse a "nice" instructor with one telling them what they want to hear. I always say if someone is telling you everything you want to hear, run, because they are probably not telling you the whole truth.

By accreditation, Spotted Cat, do you mean that only BHS instructors should be allowed to teach people competing BE? I don't know enough about the system here to say if that's the answer or not, although I know in the Canadian equivalent it's still a very debatable point for all sorts of reasons - at the lowest levels at least, there are great trainers with no coaching credentials and really lousy ones who have passed their tests. (At the upper levels most accredited instructors are very good but that's partly because already very talented and successful riders and trainers have been encouraged to take their exams, after the fact, as it were, getting their experience before their papers, not necessarily within the coaching system.)

I've been turning over whether or not there is a "market" in the current climate for some sort of "introduction to eventing cross country assessment day", where as high a profile as possible acknowledged expert (someone older, either still riding, training, or moved into officiating) or two assess riders over a set number of tests, say a short course, a few specific fence questions, and a measured, timed galloping stretch. Not a competition, so less pressure, but a chance for people new to the sport (or concerned about something in their riding) to get organised, private feedback from a neutral respected source, preferably with some sort of "take home" like a written report or a video with commentary and suggestions on how to improve. A sort of "xc equitation". There could also be basic hand outs about conditioning, equipment, warmup etc etc. People would have a set time and since it would be xc only it would be in and out, perhaps even with the option of having the review sent on if one couldn't wait.

I don't know how interested people would be but it seems a possible gap measure between schooling on one's own and actually setting out on a course. . . .

I'm plotting . . .
 
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