Market Harborough - advice?

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littlen

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Im thinking of using one of these on my horse to help with some problems I am having.

He is a nice horse and goes in a snaffle most of the time. I show in a pelham and he goes well also but I feel its too strong for 'everyday' riding as I dont feel confident with 2 reins and I dont like roundings.

The main problem I have with him is head carriage. In the school I can work him into an outline within 15-20mins but he obviusly finds it hard. I have lessons once a week (or did before he dropped weight, he is now coming back into work after a month or two off) and I use the excersises and he works nicely on the bit.
However, hacking is not good. He gets very excited and jogs constantly. He carries his head very very high and will bolt with his head so far up he has actually hit me in the face, I have no brakes at all once he goes. Strangely though he can bolt, and then be fine for the rest of the ride afterwards. It is scaring me though and as much as I advocate schooling, which I am doing, I need something to enable me to hack him out safely.

I was thinking of hacking in the pelham but I am not sure this is the best thing for him, as sometimes he is fine, sometimes he is horrible. I am not sure what triggers his moods but sometimes he is fine, others he is a snorting prancing idiot. He seems okay in the pelham but seems to back away from the contact if I pick up the curb too much, wheras in the snaffle he mouths the bit etc.
My instructor is not a lover of pelhams and puts me off using it. I have also had lots and lots of negative comments from people about it. I am unsure which bit he prefers, he feels lighter in the pelham but mouths the snaffle more. I am no expert!
I also cant get the hang of 2 reins. I get in a muddle and am scared of using the wrong one.

I have tried a number of different bits. Gags are no good as they bring his head higher. I have tried a hanging cheek and many different snaffles, I have even tried a hackamore which he hated even more.
I have also tried a standing and running martingale and didnt feel any effect from either, he still got his head up and he still managed to bronc.

I have had his back and teeth checked, he had a slight something out in his back which was treated and physio said it is healed now. I have also had the saddler out who said his saddle is not pinching and dosent move, although I am saving for a new adjustable one to see if that helps.

So, a friend has suggested a market harborough to stop him getting his head so high in the hope I will have some brakes/stop him lifting his head and bolting when excited.

If he was yours what would you do? Keep persisting with the snaffle, swap to the pelham and see how he goes or try the market harborough?
What excactly does a MH do?
Is a pelham as harsh as they say?

How would I know which bit he prefers?
Is there a simple way to use double reins?

I am getting very confused at the moment!
 
Hi!
Just bumping this really as I am no bitting etc expert. I have ridden in MH's for people in the past but I would say they are better suited to a horse in training or a horse that does have the strength to work in an outline but just doesn't now and then. I think although you say you have tried it, a running martingale is your best bet. I have a bolter, although he doesn't bring his head right up! I ride him in a snaffle simply because when he goes even if he had barbed wire in his mouth he wouldn't stop, so I don't see the point in over-bitting. I would try (personally) a snaffle, running martingale and riding out with a quiet horse if poss for a while?? Hope this helps although as I say, this is just what I would do..
:)
 
I used to use one on my mare whilst hacking, she has a high head carriage and running martingales do nothing to help. used a MH on a loose clip ( i`ve used it tight, if she pancied whilst out hacking it wouldnt really help the situation)
They do work for horses who get above the bit and are strong, but thats my opinion
 
Thanks both of you :)

I have tied a running martingale. It didnt really have any effect at all as he was still able to get his head too high up. It didnt really stop his head coming up at all?
He sort of throws his head right up and takes off. If I pull on the reins to get him to stop his head goes higher and higher until he smacks me in the face. He also shakes his head from side to side quite violently when doing it as if to get away from me asking him to slow down (he has had me off a few times with the shaking his head as he bucks at the same time)
I need something that will stop him lifting his head to the point he can take off and also something to help with my lack of brakes!

My first thought was he is in pain somewhere, but he only does it on certain occasions, say if entering an open field, surely if he was in pain the pain wouldnt only happen when he was in an open area it would be there all the time? He has been checked everywhere too which points me to behavioural.


I am so tempted to just stick the pelham in but he really dosent need it all of the time and people keep telling me its a harsh awful bit (instructor included)
 
I am no expert but I would not advise anybody to hack out anywhere knowing that the horse could bolt and has bolted at any time without any control.
It is dangerous not only to yourself and your horse but also to other road users.

I have used a Market Harborough on my ex racer TB when she was SJ'ing as like yours she would be quite rude into a fence and stick her nose high and pull to the fence, I liked the MH as it only came into effect when her head was raised higher than desired.

Could you not borrow one and use it in the school to see how you get on and then maybe hack round a private fenced piece of land to see if you have the desired control before risking going out on a hack.

Good luck
 
Hiya, I used to use a market harborough on Axel as he used to get strong when cantering an would always put his head up, it worked brilliantly for him. I also used to hunt a horse that wore one and he was fine too. Give it a try :)
What I did was use the MH reins all the time then when I hacked out I would put the MH on and there was no need to change bits or anything.
 
I've used a Market Harborough out hunting on a strong horse who was prone to a high head carriage. Its action is rather like draw reins. If the horse's head is in the correct position, it doesn't act but if the horse raises its head too high (depending on which dees you attach the reins too) the horse ends up pulling against itself.
I would give it a go on your horse.
 
Thanks.

Can you do everything you usually would in a MH or is it like a standing where you cannot jump etc (not that I do much of that anyway though)

Horse dosent bolt as in the blind panic sense, he is not scared he is being an idiot. I can stop in a snaffle with some hauling but it is quite honestly terrifying especially as he can bronc or buck at the same time. I would just hack in the pelham but for 90% of the ride he is a donkey. He has tantrums if he cannot get his own way.

My friend has lent me one to try although I have not used it yet as I am hoping someone can show me how to fit it etc as I have no clue.

My instructor has been advising me to just keep pushing with the snaffle as she hates pelhams but I am not sure whens the right time to admit I need to swap to a stronger bit, if that makes sense?
 
Why not switch his pelham to the same mouthpiece as the snaffle he is happy in or try something like a peewee bit.

Personally I would say practice with the two reins and use the pelham all the time - used correctly it is no harsher than a snaffle.
 
I jump mine in a MH, he gets his head up to next to your nose and tanks off with you otherwise! Would recommend it most definately but make sure you don't do it too tight! You can do everything in a MH, have jumped upto and over 1.05m in it and he warms up fine in it(just use it for jumping) it should be used in conjuction with a snaffle(not hanging cheek). I find it easier to contain Red in it and don't feel threatened when his head comes up anymore, he did actually head butt me once before!
This is him in a running martingale:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UHzUBgHRyQ&feature=related
And at the same place a few months later with his MH on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8HcuMlg9E4&feature=related

Added videos for something you can compare against :) Good luck!
 
Have you tried a bib martingale? I find if a running does not work a bib normally does, when he puts his head up you can get his head down by using the rein to the side. You can also jump in them as he can still strech and will not restrict movement.

Good luck though.
 
Surely if he finds it difficult to work in an outline he needs to build up the muscles in his back/neck. What is the point in just forcing him to hold his head in a false outline?
 
horsegirl said:
Surely if he finds it difficult to work in an outline he needs to build up the muscles in his back/neck. What is the point in just forcing him to hold his head in a false outline?
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It doesn't force them into working in an outline as such, it only comes into play when the horse's head reaches a certain point and stops it being raised further. Mine will work back through it so he's not on it at all when warming up :)
 
I used a MH on a new horse that threatened to rear when he got nappy, it really worked for me as I could hold his head in place when he thought about going up - it gave me the confidence to get on him and know that if he started his tricks I could do something about it, he never does it now because he was not allowed to get away with it!

It is a very useful piece of kit :)

I also use a pelham (with roundings and one rein) on my other horse when we go hunting, it is perfect for him, he is lovely to hunt now, never pulls in it and is as light as a feather - he got so strong in a snaffle hunting, I couldn't hold him.
 
horsegirl said:
Surely if he finds it difficult to work in an outline he needs to build up the muscles in his back/neck. What is the point in just forcing him to hold his head in a false outline?
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Im in a bit of a catch 22 there, he WONT work in an outline, therfore has no muscle, so finds it impossible, so refuses to do it.
If he had the muscle I am sure it would be easier but how do you build muscle in a horse with a stupidly high head carriage.
I have tried all of the usual schooling excersises and I can get outline after 20 mins, but this dosent work hacking as he finds it too exciting and his natural reaction is to hold his head up high and jog, which I dont want him to do, but I cant stop him as he wont listen to anything I ask.

I am not saying that I will use it all of the time, but at the moment its dangerous to hack a horse that is literally smacking me in the face as his head is too high and I dont see the point in fighting a loosing battle with him if I can 'fix' it.
I will continue to school him without 'gadgets' but for the moment I need some help as what I am doing is obviously not working :(
 
Oh I Feel your pain.

I have a lovely little horse who is very sweet natured but also a wimp. If he gets scared it's flip top head cross jaw and run.

To start with a snaffle and a running martingale were good, you say you've tried one but by the sounds of things it was too loose. Maybe try a smaller or better adjusted one?

We used a pelham for showing and I also hacked out in it but with two reins. Had a slider on the bottom rein so I didn't need to hold it, it was there to grab in an emergency.

With schooling the pelham became too strong on hacks so then we switched to a dutch gag with one rein on the 2nd ring, that is what we hack in now. I tend to ride with little contact but if I have to pick it up it's there as needed and I can drop it again quickly enough that he doesn't feel over contained and start to bounce, which is what happened with pelham in the end.

Schooling I did use a Market Harborough a handful of times just to get the idea into his head that he didn't need to be in giraffe mode. It really worked and not needed since. But he was hyper sensitive in it, so if you want to try one try it in the safety of the school first as they can decide to fight the restriction and you don't want that happening outside the arena.

Most of my lads head issues come from teeth problems so might also be worth checking that out.

Good luck.
 
Alibear said:
Oh I Feel your pain.

I have a lovely little horse who is very sweet natured but also a wimp. If he gets scared it's flip top head cross jaw and run.

To start with a snaffle and a running martingale were good, you say you've tried one but by the sounds of things it was too loose. Maybe try a smaller or better adjusted one?

We used a pelham for showing and I also hacked out in it but with two reins. Had a slider on the bottom rein so I didn't need to hold it, it was there to grab in an emergency.

With schooling the pelham became too strong on hacks so then we switched to a dutch gag with one rein on the 2nd ring, that is what we hack in now. I tend to ride with little contact but if I have to pick it up it's there as needed and I can drop it again quickly enough that he doesn't feel over contained and start to bounce, which is what happened with pelham in the end.

Schooling I did use a Market Harborough a handful of times just to get the idea into his head that he didn't need to be in giraffe mode. It really worked and not needed since. But he was hyper sensitive in it, so if you want to try one try it in the safety of the school first as they can decide to fight the restriction and you don't want that happening outside the arena.

Most of my lads head issues come from teeth problems so might also be worth checking that out.

Good luck.
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Thanks,
Sounds like a similar problem to mine!

I think I am going to try the MH tomorrow and see what happens. I am a little worried he will fight it though and have a tantrum but I suppose I wont know until I try.

I could try another martingale, again if the MH dosent work its something I will certainly try again.

I do feel safer in the pelham I must admit as I know I can stop, but I am worried that he will back off the contact rather than work into it as the bit is quite strong really isnt it? For showing he works okay in it but I only use it a handful of times a year. I would use it regulally but I am unsure if he actually likes it.
I did try a dutch gag for a week but I found it actually lifted his head carriage rather than lowered it which was strange.

My horse is super sensitive and hates strong contact. If he wants to go he will go, and the more I ask him to stop the more he fights. He dosent really listen.
I can get him on the bit with loads of transitions and circles in the school but he still dosent get the concept of working on the bit outside of the school, its like a different horse. He is not fantastic to hack as he is spooky, spins and takes off but I am trying my best to push myself through it as I dont want to be too scared to ride out again, hence looking for something to solve the problem while I work on it in the school too.
He is already in a flash to stop the jaw crossing but he still tilts his head about. I forgot to say he is an arab so naturally high head carriage anyway. He hollows through his back most of the time and has virtually no topline or bum to speak of.

His teeth have been done recently, but I will definatley have a work with my dentist and see if he can come back and check.
 
You don't say whether you are using any sort of drop noseband? I would have thought a standing martingale would do the trick - maybe you did not have it fitted properly. It should only just be able to be pulled up to their throat. I would get someone knowledgeable to check the fitting and you definitely need some sort of noseband. Be very careful hacking out as a bolting horse is incredibly dangerous!!! You could also try running reins but again would need an expert to show you how to use them.
 
Gags can have that effect which I think what they're designed for, I find it different with each horse.

Sounds like ou have aplan of things to try which is great and add to your list just have a sit in the school with a gag and no flash. Some times the combination of the two is too much. Sorry if you've already tried that.
 
I would try a different noseband too - presuming you are in a cavesson maybe try a drop or grackle as he could be crossing his jaw/opening his mouth.

Not sure I agree with your instructer RE the pelham. FAR better to be in a slightly stronger bit than be hauling on a snaffle (not suggesting anything about your riding). Plus a pelham is not a particularly strong bit if used correctly with 2 reins - however if you are not confident with it probs not a great idea.

I would try the MH but get someone to show you and pop it on the loosest setting first in the school so you get used to it before hacking. Also check you were using the standing martingale correctly as they shouldnt be able to get their head up that high if used properly.

Failing all of above could you see if you could get your instructer or someone else v experienced to hack your horse out to see exactly what they do - it could possibly be cured with stronger or more experienced riding. I would avoid going out on your own as it could be bloody dangerous. Best of luck !
 
My little chap is Arabx so has always had a high headcarridge, and we did have schooling problems when he was younger. I rode in a pelham, and also in the school used the MH with a snaffle, both helped him balance, and once he got the idea, he was fine. (Well, he was improved!!:rolleyes:) I did find that as he had a small mouth, he seemed happier with the straight-bar pelham, so switched to a straight-bar snaffle. I hacked him for ages in the pelham though, and wasn't worried. If you use the top rein its just like using a snaffle, and the bottom one is there in case you need it. I don't think of it a strong bit. But my experience is very limited!!!
 
hannah87 said:
I would try a different noseband too - presuming you are in a cavesson maybe try a drop or grackle as he could be crossing his jaw/opening his mouth.

Not sure I agree with your instructer RE the pelham. FAR better to be in a slightly stronger bit than be hauling on a snaffle (not suggesting anything about your riding). Plus a pelham is not a particularly strong bit if used correctly with 2 reins - however if you are not confident with it probs not a great idea.

I would try the MH but get someone to show you and pop it on the loosest setting first in the school so you get used to it before hacking. Also check you were using the standing martingale correctly as they shouldnt be able to get their head up that high if used properly.

Failing all of above could you see if you could get your instructer or someone else v experienced to hack your horse out to see exactly what they do - it could possibly be cured with stronger or more experienced riding. I would avoid going out on your own as it could be bloody dangerous. Best of luck !
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Thankyou everyone for all of your replies :)

I am not sure if I used the standing correctly, my instructor fitted it but he shook his head constantly and wouldnt settle in it so I gave up. He was better in the running but he could still get his head too high up, I have never thought of a bib, might be a good idea!

At the moment he is in a flash noseband as it stops him opening his mouth, it dosent stop him shaking his head trying though! I couldnt find a drop in my local tack shop and didnt quite know what a grackle does so just left it at that. He goes okay in the flash so I didnt bother changing it.

Could I use a pelham with martingale or is that too much?

I think I will try the MH tomorrow but am fully expecting to get nowhere as usual so I am exploring a list of things to try next!

The reason I dont use the pelham is because I dont feel confident with the 2 reins. I could just use roundings but dont they contradict the action completley?
I am okay with 2 reins on a normal horse but when he is broncing and spinning I sort of just loose myself and I am scared of catching him with the curb...
 
If you're worried about a pelham being too strong try a jointed pelham as its suppose to feel like a snaffle in the horses mouth until you pull.
And the double rein thing does take some getting used to, a technique i was taught was to split the two reins when holding them down with my thumb, just so you can see what's going on. Also may sound silly but just wanted to make sure you're using two different types of reins (plaited and plain) makes it easier to know what rein you're using.
And if you really are having difficulty i know someone that just uses attaches the bottom rein to the pelham, probably not at all proper, make has a similar effect
Hope this helps
 
I still use a MH on my arab - more from habit than need these days.

He was exactly like yours sounds. Show him an open bit of grass and off he'd go; head up, tail up, over the bit = no brakes! :eek:
I've had a nosebleed from his head coming up so far and fast and catching me by surprise!

I changed him into the MH and a filet baucher (hanging cheek snaffle) and never looked back. Didn't slow him down mind, only age has done that! :rolleyes:

The MH only comes into play when their head goes up too far. They then pull against themselves so you don't have to battle with them. The filet b applies some poll pressure to discourage the high head carriage in the first place.

Sadly they won't help you with a schooling outline but will help with the head in the air issues.

If it were me I'd be looking at lunging a little more and adding side reins set very long (once he's warmed up obviously!) to start with so he can use his back muscles correctly. Once he starts to relax down he'll find it easier.
 
Thanks everyone. I have a jointed pelham, could try that if he resists the straight bar.
Thanks Steph. I do use 2 different reins, I am just rubbish lol!

Three, they arnt doing much to rubbish the stereotype are they lol. Once I hit grass, head in air, tail in air, me with black eye and im off.
If I try and hold him back his head comes up higher and higher and his whole body tenses up to the point he is bouncing so high in the air I am finding it impossible to sit to!
I find myself hauling on the snaffle, more to get his head down than to get him to stop which is why I am looking at a MH or similar. I just need something that will stop his head going to the point of no return before it gets dangerous. I am not bothered about outline at the moment really, it would be nice but I am more interested in staying alive! I am working on the outline in the school and its coming on verrrrrry slowly.

I do lunge him in side reins but have to be careful not to overdo it as he dropped alot of weight coming out of winter as we had literally no grass. He has moved now to a field full of the stuff and is gaining weight at super speed, I have no doubt that the grass is not helping but I cant take him off it.

Is your arab the grey in your sig, looks very similar to mine. Mine is a very 'old english/polish' looking type (never looked at his pedigree in detail so cant be sure!) so quite chunky for a silly dancing arab as he is known on the yard as :)
 
Ha! Yes, he's just like that (or was when younger). He is the grey - quite tall for an arab at 15.3, very long legged but have never been able to keep enough weight on him for him to be described as chunky. He's 35 now and will still take off if he thinks he can get away with it (he was thinking of trying in that photo with my friend riding - he was 32 then!) and jogs rather than walks if allowed to. :D

I remember well that hauling on the bit thing - reins so short it felt like you could link your fingers through the bit rings - still no stopping him though! :eek: The fields rang with my shrieks of "Will you bl**dy well walk you b*******!'

All that said I'd have another one like him tomorrow! Super safe on the roads, great to handle, an angel in the stable - just umm, 'over-excitable', if he could see an opportunity for a blast! :D

The MH really helped along with the FB bit. I didn't ever go for a 'stronger' bit. Once we limited how high he could carry his head (ie: not upright like a lama) it became easier to stop - especially if the was a handy hedge to brake into! :D

I'd increase the lunging if you can - especially if he's gaining weight now and get him really relaxed so he can stretch over his back and start to build that top-line into something useful.
 
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I have a (shhhhhh) coloured cob who is just like this. I found that the stronger the mouthpiece, the worse she was. She is far better in a mullen pelham than a jointed pelham becuse it spreads the pressure points. A jointed pelham has practically no curb pressure because the bit 'collapses' when the reins are used, and it's the curb ction which encourges the head to lower.
Can't comment about a Market Harborough, because I never used one, but what about a Harbridge? I found this very sucessful in stopping Star from throwing her head up.
And lastly - I found that since open spaces caused the problem, then we schooled out in the fields. Lots of circles, transitions, changes of rein and lots of 'giving' of the inside rein, use of the seat and back to 'hold' - plenty to think about other than just going fast. And when she jogs, she has to work by going sideways. When she does start to go too fast, we turn circles - anything to bend her neck.


It's taken time, but now we can hack out in a loose ring snaffle - 18 months ago, it was mullen pelham on 2 reins.

Keep working with it. You'll get there.
 
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I found the MH very useful for hacking one of mine. I only used it a couple of times and now don't need it. pm me if you are looking for one.
 
Alot of horses go much better in a high grackle or a drop rather than a flash as they do not need to be tight to be effective and the horse can relax its jaw.
Iv found mine does not fight me in a grackle or drop but would be very resistant in a flash.
 
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