Massive behavioural changes...(Exceptionally long)

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AnnaandStella

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I'm ready to give up.

I've had my beautiful girl Stella for 6/7 months.

She's a 10yr old Westphalian, but her sire was a Trakehner who stood at the Westfale stud so she's got quite a lot of "hot" blood.

She's a schoolmistress but not bombproof - she'll take a look & she will spook & she is clever as anything.

1st month after we got her from the dealer - she bucked me off in the 1st week & behaviorally bucked (small) when she felt like it through fear/uncertainty. Bucked me off again in the fourth week.

Next 5 months - she was foot perfect. A super easy ride, really fun. Rubber snaffle & no noseband. Still had fresh days, the odd big spook but TRIED so hard to please.

About 3 1/2 weeks ago, she took a spook, bolted forward then shoved her head between her knees & bucked. I got back on.

A couple of weeks later she tried to buck off my brother then someone better got on & she bolted and bucked (like when she got me off) but the rider stayed on.

3 days ago she did a mini rear when I used my stick to get her to stand by a filler she was spooking at.

Yesterday, she bronced for NO REASON, really maliciously, with a girl who was riding her and then responded to the smack she got for it with a half-rear.

Today, she bucked with me so I got off & the girl who rides her got on. Horse tried to buck, had her head pulled up so then started spinning & reared, walking backwards, reared again and then was pulled around onto the ground.

A brilliant rider then got on and horse hardly tried anything.

I've turned her out until the weekend.

It's not her back or teeth, she's not showing signs of lameness or pain anywhere, but her head seems so messed up.

Help?
 
That's a horse in pain through the back or hocks if you ask me. I'd be inclined to say back if she's bucking.....Ty stood on his back legs when his hocks were hurting last winter....hasn't done it since he's freed up a bit.

I'd get the vet out to rule out onset of kissing spine.....
 
* It's not her back or teeth, she's not showing signs of lameness or pain anywhere, but her head seems so messed up. *

So sorry for you and the poor ned. How do you know her back is ok - has it been checked? Your post says to me that she is in pain or discomfort. Can you take a video of her under saddle to show us? Cant imagine a horse would take the P with so many riders - her behaviour isnt that of a happy horse.
 
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That's a horse in pain through the back or hocks if you ask me. I'd be inclined to say back if she's bucking.....Ty stood on his back legs when his hocks were hurting last winter....hasn't done it since he's freed up a bit.

I'd get the vet out to rule out onset of kissing spine.....

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I will get vet out, for my peace of mind.

I never thought she'd be worse today, I thought she's be humbled a bit after yesterday's telling off.

It does seem to be behavioural though as there are certain "triggers" & it's only with competent riders / competent novices...

Also, she reared in her box as I put the rug over her door earlier. She's normally bright as a button & in full knowledge of everything going on around her -
could it be her eyesight?

...
 
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* It's not her back or teeth, she's not showing signs of lameness or pain anywhere, but her head seems so messed up. *

So sorry for you and the poor ned. How do you know her back is ok - has it been checked? Your post says to me that she is in pain or discomfort. Can you take a video of her under saddle to show us? Cant imagine a horse would take the P with so many riders - her behaviour isnt that of a happy horse.

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I will take a video.

The YO has checked all over her back & he's really pretty knowledgeable

BUT

I will get the vet out, , as I can't cope with this change. In 3 days basically she's gone from being easy with the odd "moment" to a nutjob.

Although, everyone has said she's taking the mick/advantage as she doesn't do it with riders who are one step ahead of her - as she's a schoolmistress it's normally "ask" but now it has to be "tell"...
 
What is she being fed on, I do tend to bang on about this, but having had one which was intollerant of most feeds and as mad as a wasp as a result, it is always worth looking at IMO
 
i would definatly get vet to check.. spesh for kissing spines if shes suddenly flipping
is she better on one rein than the other at all?

have you told her off at all?

x
 
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What is she being fed on, I do tend to bang on about this, but having had one which was intollerant of most feeds and as mad as a wasp as a result, it is always worth looking at IMO

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She gets sugarbeet, chaff & a small scoop of nuts.
 
Let us know how you get on - is she behaving badly in and aswell?

If she has a bad back it may not always be apparent from the ground - have you had her saddle checked aswell - Ty was broncing a few years ago as his saddle was sitting wrongly!
 
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i would definatly get vet to check.. spesh for kissing spines if shes suddenly flipping
is she better on one rein than the other at all?

have you told her off at all?

x

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Better on right rein (anticlockwise) - what's this a symptom of?

This is the thing - it's when she's told off that she rears...
 
Try stopping all her food, gradualy over a week and then give it anothe rtwo weeks and see how she is going then. At this time of year that should be no hardship for her, provided she is getting enough grass/hay. It may not be the answer but you would be amazed at the number of animals this is the cause of behavioural problems for.
 
Yorks has a point - the sugarbeet might not be a good idea with all the good grass about, although it's obviously losing it's goodness now.
 
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Let us know how you get on - is she behaving badly in and aswell?

If she has a bad back it may not always be apparent from the ground - have you had her saddle checked aswell - Ty was broncing a few years ago as his saddle was sitting wrongly!

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Just jekyll & hyde - either quiet as a lamb or a freaked out panicking idiot...

Her saddle was refitted last month...
 
Get rid of the sugarbeet, I only use it as a last resort winter feed!
I would get a behaviourist out, aswell as the vet etc.
The behaviourist may be able to help you see if from a completely differant point of view and help you resolve the issues. The vet is a definate too! There could be something underlying and she is just trying to tell you it hurts. Get the chiopractor and dentist out. You would be amazed at how many horses rear and buck etc due to back and teeth problems. Basically if it were my horse I would have every test under the sun done. If there is nothing wrong medically / physically, this is where a behaviourist can help.
Hope this helps!
Izzi x
 
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i would definatly get vet to check.. spesh for kissing spines if shes suddenly flipping
is she better on one rein than the other at all?

have you told her off at all?

x

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Better on right rein (anticlockwise) - what's this a symptom of?

This is the thing - it's when she's told off that she rears...

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no just horses with kissing spines tend to be quite hm cant think of the word - but they suddenly flip.. some days they're fine then somedays they're absolouty lethal cause they're in pain and another sign is when they're good on one rein but not on the other (maybe find it hard to canter on one rein for exampe)
they also tend to get disunited in canter. they can also be a bit cold-backed.. or arch their back when you go to get on etc

unlikely but just something to consider really!
 
If her saddle was refitted last month, doesn't this almost directly correspond with the change in behaviour? That would be the first place to look, even if it is simply by trying a different saddle
 
agree with this. The change has been too quick for it to be behavioural imo.
Although you have had her back checked, something could have happened the following day even to hurt it. I also wouldn't let lots of people ride her, someone may get hurt and also if it is pain related, it could make things worse. Good luck, i am sure you will get it sorted and get your nice horse back.
 
Yep, agree with the above, for this to happen in just a short period of time there has to be a reason. And it's worth remembering that horses don't understand punishment. If she gets hit after an event she won't link the two in her mind, to her she's just getting beaten.
At this time of the year I might knock the hard feed on the head, but definitely I'd cut out the sugar beet. She's probably gettting quite enough sugars from the grass. If you want to make sure she has all her vits and mins then give a good balancer, I'd use Top Spec, maybe a handful of Hi Fi to help it down.
It sounds to me as if you and your friends are gradually increasing the pressure on this horse, and she is responding. The pressure may be that you are simply continuing to ride her while she is uncomfortable, but also it is probably that experienced riders are getting tougher on her because they think she is taking the mick and needs sorting out.
Interesting, you say she plays up with novice and experienced riders... but not the ones in the middle somewhere? Well, novice riders tend to sit badly, be hard on the mouth and therefore make any physical situation feel worse for the horse. Experienced riders may demand more athletically from the horse... ditto. The ones in the middle might just sit lightly, have a nice soft contact and just go for a happy hack.
 
Oh, a p.s. The bucking earlier on just sounds to me like a reaction when she felt a bit lacking in confidence. It's the last 3 days I think you need to focus on. Consider also changes in stable routine, turnout, handling etc.
 
I agree. I think you ought to have her back thoroughly checked out by a chiropractor and also have her saddle rechecked. Is this the same saddle that you pm'd me about?

I have seen this a lot - sometimes it is genuinely behavioural, but it tends to be built up over a longer period not a sudden change like this unless it is pain related.

I suppose you have also ruled out her being in season etc and any other changes to her routine as she seems to have been fine for 6 months and now suddenly she is so inconsistent?

Being better on one rein than the other can mean lots of things - hock, back, rider etc. I think you need to take a systematic approach to find out what is wrong with her. I also think punishing her with the whip when she could possibly be in pain could turn her sour in that she cannot understand that she is being punished for bad behaviour - i think this is why she has started the rearing and you do not want her to establish this behaviour. I also think you should give her some time off ridden work (especially being ridden by so many people) and work her on the lunge/longreining her to see how she is working.
 
Ok i really think your mare is in discomfort, as an 'expert!' these symtoms are classic of the horse being in discomfort, particularly as the change in behaviour has been quite sudden.

I would strongly advise getting the mare's back checked asap, this requires veterinary permission by law, so mention to your vet the problems when you call him/her about having the back checked and then he is aware of the problem and if it doesn't improve following treatment i would certainly get the vet out. As a McTimoney therapist i obviously strongly advocate this as your first point of call as i see first hand the massive improvement in equine and canines. They would also be able to advise if any physio etc. is needed, but many McTimoney therapists also are qualified in massage etc. as i am.

Have the teeth been checked in the last 6 months?
Some horses can go much longer but some routinely need doing every 5-6 months depending on numerous factors such as previous dental care and conformation of the jaw.

Saddle - Was this fitted and checked by a qualified saddler? Have the behavioural changes been since the saddle was altered? do you notice the saddle moving? Does it sit you backwards/forwards? Whne you have the bcak checked make sure you have got the saddles there for the therapist to look at.

Routine - has the horses routine changed? less time in the field? Is she getting enough exercise?
Whya re numerous people riding her? Some horses simply cannot cope with this and find it distressing and confusing if they are very sensitive as she seems to be. Having a trainer helping you and riding her occaisonally is beneficial but lots of different people getting on and off is not particuallry if she was not used to this, this is the reason one of my horse's napped/reared before i had her as she was used for jumping in Stage 3/4 exams occaisonally and hated it.

Are you feeding her too much? She is getting too much energy from her feed. Does she have a variety of activities not just going in the school 6 days a week doing the same thing?

Hope this is some help, please message me if I can be any help regarding back issues!
 
Thank you, everyone, for your replies...

She's being turned out for the couple of days & nights until the vet comes out.

It really sounds like she could have kissing spines / is sore somewhere, so until that's pinpointed I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

It just seems like a switch has been pressed.
 
Thats exactly what i was going to post MH ! Just because it was recently refitted doesnt mean its ok- My insane rearing westphalian was much better in an old saddle with saggy flock that IMO was an average fit than the "perfect" fitted A**ion he had. I would try another saddle of a reasonable fit (borrowed if poss) and see if the behaviour changes....
 
Listen to McTimRLM, everything they said makes sense! Yard owners are knowlegable sometimes, but it doesnt mean they know the skeletal and muscular structure inside out like a proffessional. It sounds to me as she is trying to tell you something, I would suggest time off until the back is done, and please don't tell her off, I also think lots of riders can upset a horse, this kind of horse can be VERY sensitive (I own a trakhener who is the most sensitive little soul in the world and can't cope with anyone riding her really, only my instructor now and again), they need to get used to one person really, as everyone rides differently and this can really unnerve a horse. Hope that all made sense, good luck with her
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Her saddle was refitted last month...

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The I would most definitely be getting the vet to check her back PROPERLY (no disrespect to your YO but we can all run our hands along the top of a horse and say its ok).

The refitting of your saddle may now have uncovered a problem with either kissing spines, muscle trouble or any number of other things that could have been hidden before.

Until you know what you are actually dealing with it really would be kinder NOT to hit her when she objects to doing something.
 
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Her saddle was refitted last month...

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The I would most definitely be getting the vet to check her back PROPERLY (no disrespect to your YO but we can all run our hands along the top of a horse and say its ok).

The refitting of your saddle may now have uncovered a problem with either kissing spines, muscle trouble or any number of other things that could have been hidden before.

Until you know what you are actually dealing with it really would be kinder NOT to hit her when she objects to doing something.

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Gosh, that makes it sound awful - "it really would be kinder NOT to hit her when she objects to doing something" - it was only a tap & to be fair she was acting like she was trying it on.


She's currently turned out & not ridden until the vet can asses the situation.

As to why she had so many riders - she WAS really outgoing & loved variety & I'm a pretty poor rider so she used to perk up when someone better got on but equally had a 7yr old who'd never been on a horse before on her a month ago.

Her routine has changed - extra work shifts have meant me riding in the evenings rather than afternoon & she's had the girl who she's been really naughty with riding her on the nights I don't ride which started about a week and a half ago.


Please don't be too hard on me, I am really beating myself up about this as I've basically turned my dream horse into an evil freak...
will let you know what the vet says.
 
****Her routine has changed - extra work shifts have meant me riding in the evenings rather than afternoon & she's had the girl who she's been really naughty with riding her on the nights I don't ride which started about a week and a half ago.****

Perhaps its something this girl has done. I know some people who can make horses look very pretty where they just kind of sit and clamp and hold them together, my mare for one would not stand for this, and where it may look nice to the inexperienced eye, horses can object to this especially if when they are "clamped" it is hurting. This girl may have given her a good telling off whilst you weren't about, making the mare trust riders less and less, whilst hurting more. I'm not saying it is this girl at all, but it is one possibility.
 
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